HC Deb 01 June 1960 vol 624 cc1433-6
17. Mr. Boyden

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the congestion and danger caused by wide loads on the roads, he will consider introducing a compulsory convoy system for all abnormally wide or dangerous loads, limiting their movement to the hours of 9 p.m. to 7 a.m., announcing their routes, and instituting regular police control of such convoys.

Mr. Marples

Notice of the proposed movement of all loads over 91½ ft. wide has to be given to the police, who have powers to direct changes in the time, date and route of the movement in the light of local circumstances, and may decide to escort and convoy particular loads. Loads over 20 ft. wide can already move only on the authority of individual special orders issued by me.

Mr. Boyden

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the situation caused by these large vehicles is so serious that greater steps are required to deal with it? Is not the right hon. Gentleman letting his free enterprise doctrinaire notions run away with him to the detriment of human life? Could not the problem be tackled by vigorous administrative action to everybody's advantage? Could he not take some steps to restrict the amount of traffic in that way?

Mr. Marples

Let us get this matter quite straight. They may cause con- gestion, but they rarely cause accidents because they are so slow. It is wrong to say that these big loads cause accidents. The police on the whole have the powers—they are applied, for example, in the City of Birmingham—and it depends on the local traffic authorities' police to decide what to do.

It may interest the hon. Gentleman to know that new proposals for control have been sent out in a circular letter which was issued by me on 24th May. It proposed certain controls on the movements of very long loads, which cause more congestion than wide ones, similar in extent to those relating to wide loads, and a special control by the Ministry on loads between 14 and 20 ft. wide, and I am waiting for comments on this.

Mr. Slater

In view of the heavy loads which are now being carried on the Al and the necessity for constant police patrols, could the right hon. Gentleman say who is meeting the cost of the police patrols which have to be assigned to these heavy loads?

Mr. Marples

That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Captain Pilkington

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these large loads cause accidents because of the amount of frustration which they cause to scores of drivers of vehicles following behind them?

Mr. Marples

My information is that they do not cause accidents. I grant that they certainly cause congestion and in some cases there have been infringements. There was a recent case, for example, at Evesham in which the person concerned said that a load was going to be 20 ft. wide and it turned out to be 22 ft. wide, which meant that the routing was wrong. That is now being considered by the local police.

Mr. Benn

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that he is not concerned if the police provide escorts for these vehicles? Is it not a matter of great concern to him that there should be a subsidy for one form of transport as against the railways which have to operate paying for their own policing and security?

Mr. Marples

The heavy vehicles contribute an enormous revenue. All I am saying is that the police authority comes under my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and if the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) were in his place he would be indignant if I were to answer a question for my right hon. Friend.

Mr. W. R. Williams

Is it not clear from one's personal experience that there is no place on the modern congested road for vehicles of this size and the loads they carry? Would it not be better to come to a decision that the railways are a much more suitable form of transit for this type of traffic?

Mr. Marples

The odd thing is that even if these loads go on the railways they still have to go on the roads to get to their final destination.

37. Captain Pilkington

asked the Minister of Transport what recent reports he has had concerning the road congestion caused by the build-up of long queues of traffic, due to very slow-moving and very large bulk-carrying vehicles.

Mr. Marples

Reports about individual cases are made to me from time to time, by the police or highway authorities or by individual members of the public. I have had several such reports on a recent hold-up at Evesham.

Captain Pilkington

Although the Minister said last week that it was the custom for these slow-moving loads to pull into a lay-by and let the accumulated traffic behind pass, this is very seldom done. Will my right hon. Friend consider what he can do about this?

Mr. Marples

These large loads can at present move freely on the roads only if two days' notice is given to the police and the directions of the police as to time, date and route are followed. It is a matter for the police in the locality concerned to see that their directions are such that traffic is not impeded.

Mr. Benn

Is this not another example in which the Minister, although he has not administrative control, has responsibility for co-ordination? Has he made any representations through his right hon. Friend to local authorities about the rules that the police ought reasonably to lay down for the movement of heavy goods vehicles likely to cause congestion to other road users?

Mr. Marples

It is left to the discretion of the police. A general order would not be satisfactory because local authorities vary according to the roads that they possess. It is only in these areas that local traffic authorities and the police know the conditions. Any general rule would not be worth the paper that it is written on.

38. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the obstruction, delay, danger and nuisance caused by the length, weight or nature of loads carried by heavy motor vehicles on the roads, what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that the existing regulations are adequate to meet the case.

Mr. Marples

The very largest loads may move only under individual special orders issued under my authority. I have just circulated for comment proposals for further controls on long loads and those over 14 ft. wide.

Mr. Sorensen

While the Minister's Answer gives some encouragement, does not he appreciate that my Question covers the complaints and observations of a large number of hon. Members on both sides? Is he satisfied that even the further regulations he is making will meet this very great danger and nuisance to motor traffic?

Mr. Marples

I think that they will go a long way on very wide and long roads