HC Deb 28 July 1960 vol 627 cc1841-4
9. Mr. Wall

asked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he will ensure that all recognised political parties in Southern Rhodesia are requested to participate in the discussions about the review of the Federal Constitution.

Mr. Alport

The delegations to the Federal Constitutional Review Conference will, in accordance with the Constitution of the Federation, be chosen by the respective Governments. The composition of the Southern Rhodesian delegation is thus not a matter for Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Wall

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable anxiety over the arrest of the three leaders of the National Democratic Party, and in view of the fact that leaders of the U.N.I.P. from Northern Rhodesia are, I understand, to attend the conference, will he express to the Southern Rhodesian Government the view that unless these men are proved guilty of serious charges it would be advisable to have them at the conference?

Mr. Alport

All views will be borne in mind when the time comes, but I emphasise to the House that the decision about the composition of the Southern Rhodesian delegation is a matter for the Southern Rhodesian Government.

Mr. Marquand

In all seriousness I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to forget the lessons of history again. Are we again to refuse to negotiate with Redmond and Dillon and find ourselves fighting it out later with Collins and De Valera? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole House, as I believe, feels that on this occasion there should be no prejudgment of the situation and that every endeavour should be made to consult those who are the real leaders of African opinion?

Mr. Alport

I fully understand the right hon. Gentleman's point of view, and I will call the Secretary of State's attention to it in due course. I agree that we should not forget the lessons of history, and one of those lessons is that if one devolves power on an overseas community it is not subsequently easy—or possible—to take it back again.

11. Mr. G. M. Thomson

asked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations if he is now in a position to announce the result of his discussions with the Government of Southern Rhodesia regarding the holding of a constitutional conference.

14. Mr. Callaghan

asked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations if he is yet able to state what subjects will be discussed with the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia when he visits London for constitutional talks later this year.

Mr. Alport

I have nothing at present to add to the Answer I gave the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) on 14th July.

Mr. Thomson

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that no constitutional discussions will be entered into with the Southern Rhodesian Government during the Recess and before that Government ends its present policy of repression? Will he also give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will insist that the Southern Rhodesian delegation includes genuine African representation?

Mr. Alport

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman expects me to give the assurances for which he asks. The initiative in this kind of matter usually rests with the Government of the Commonwealth country concerned, and in these circumstances the Secretary of State must be free to act as he thinks in the interests of the situation at the time, if indeed a particular situation arises between now and the reassembly of Parliament.

Mr. Callaghan

I am sure that nobody will know what all that means. Is there not a particular responsibility on Her Majesty's Government, because of their reserve powers in Sections 28 and 31 of the 1923 Proclamation, under which Her Majesty's Government are responsible for the Africans in Southern Rhodesia in certain fields? Should not the Government be willing, therefore, now to give their pledge that.those interests will not only be taken into account but will be consulted?

Mr. Alport

No, because the hon. Gentleman has, once again, misunderstood the nature of the Constitution of Southern Rhodesia. The reserve powers relate to legislation passing the Parliament of Southern Rhodesia concerning either discrimination or the amendment of the Constitution. The reserve powers of the United Kingdom Government go no further than that. I think that perhaps the hon. Gentleman is misleading himself and the rest of the House in reading into these reserve powers more than is constitutionally the case.

Mr. Callaghan

As the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia has proposed that these reserve powers should go, and it is well known that many Africans object to their going, surely the interests of the people concerned should be consulted?

Mr. Alport

That is a different matter. The hon. Gentleman is aware that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said earlier this year that, if any changes were to be made, the interests and views of the Africans concerned would be taken into account. The House must remember that we had a debate about twenty-four hours ago in which both sides were pressing upon Her Majesty's Government that a constitutional conference for Southern Rhodesia should now be called. For me now to be asked to give an undertaking that no constitutional conference should be held appears to indicate a certain amount of confusion among hon. Members. Her Majesty's Government must be left with a free hand to do what is appropriate in the circumstances.

22. Mr. Creech Jones

asked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what requests he has received from parties in Southern Rhodesia to receive a deputation regarding the future constitution of that country; and what reply he has made.

Mr. Alport

None since the deputation from the National Democratic Party which my noble Friend received on 28th April last and which we the subject of my reply to the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) on 19th May.

Mr. Creech Jones

In view of the fact that discussions on the Southern Rhodesian Constitution are pending with the Prime Minister, will the Secretary of State and the Minister of State bear in mind that the Prime Minister can speak for only a section of the population in Southern Rhodesia, and that it is vitally important that the representations of the respective political parties should be considered when questions of amendment of the Constitution are under consideration?

Mr. Alport

I think, if I may say so, that I have already answered that point on a number of previous occasions, even this afternoon. In deference to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), perhaps I should not repeat answers which I have given at least three times this afternoon.

Mr. Marquand

Will the right hon. Gentleman now tell us whether the new Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations will receive Mr. Garfield Todd who is still in London and who has very important information and views to convey to him?

Mr. Alport

I cannot go further than the point I made at a rather early hour one morning earlier this week. As far as my right hon. Friend is concerned, he of course is well aware of the presence in London of Mr. Garfield Todd.