HC Deb 12 July 1960 vol 626 cc1154-7
14. Mr. Manuel

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, under Circular 33/1960, a local authority which has actively reduced the unfit housing problem will now be authorised to build houses with subsidy for families in overcrowded, sublet, and health categories.

16. Mr. Ross

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in what circumstances he will authorise local authorities to build with subsidy for general housing needs after 23rd August, 1960.

Mr. Maclay

Any local authority proposing to build subsidised houses for needs outside the priority categories defined in the recent circular will be allowed to do so where they show that it would not be reasonable in the circumstances of their area to expect that these needs could be met in any other way.

Mr. Manuel

Could the Secretary of State explain just what he means by meeting building needs "in any other way"? Is he aware that the municipal houses that are being built are, in the main, largely being built by private enterprise firms, and that these firms are. fully engaged? If a town council has radically relieved its area of unfit houses and is now dealing with the overcrowding and sub-letting problem, should he not automatically say that it can go ahead and get on with that job, instead of having a rule of thumb to decide whether it should do so or not?

Mr. Maclay

We have to keep these things in balance. I have said that we will discuss the matter, and I might add that discussions have already taken place with two authorities—Lanark County and Hamilton—which are authorities which have already carried out surveys and established a case for subsidised houses for other needs for some time to come. This process is going on in a very rational way between my Department and the local authorities.

Mr. Manuel

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my second Question, No. 15, in which I asked him whether the local authorities will get subsidies if they build three-apartment houses for elderly couples. He did not mention that.

Mr. Speaker

I think there seems to be some confusion. I understood the Minister to be answering Questions Nos. 14 and 16. Nothing has happened about Question No. 15 yet.

Mr. Ross

How long does the right hon. Gentleman expect the local authorities will have to wait to find out how their housing needs will be met by other means? Is he not aware that the record of the private builder in building houses to let in Scotland was so deplorable that, away back in 1917, we decided, because of that failure, to go on with local authority building? The position has not improved. Will he tell me how many houses to let have been built by private enterprise in Scotland last year? Did it build a single one?

Mr. Maclay

The hon. Member is running wide of the original Question. On the main point, I have made it clear that there has been no unreasonable delay in the consultations with my Department in deciding what proposals can be approved under the terms of the circular I have issued.

Mr. Ross

Surely, the right hon. Gentleman talked about local authorities having proved need for housing which cannot be met in any other way? The only other way is private building and private builders are just not meeting the needs of Scotland.

Mr. Maclay

I do not want to prolong this argument by question and answer. Some houses become vacant in the ordinary course of events, and the number might be increased if authorities did not encourage the occupation of houses by tenants well able to provide accommodation for themselves. That is one way. Another way is that private enterprise can help directly or indirectly by the transfer of tenants from existing local authority houses.

Mr. Ross

Will they do it?

15. Mr. Manuel

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, under Circular 33/1960, he will authorise local authorities to build three-apartment houses with subsidy for the rehousing of elderly couples.

Mr. Maclay

Not normally, Sir. In the usual case three-apartment houses should be provided only for families who require that size of house for their own use.

Mr. Manuel

Will the right hon. Gentleman have another look at this question? Is he not aware that, when illness takes place in the case of either one of an elderly couple occupying a one-bedroomed house, that person usually has to go into hospital? If there were a three-apartment house available, and if the couple were able to pay the rent, another member of the family, a married daughter, for instance, could come in to nurse that elderly person and so relieve the hospital?

Mr. Maclay

I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that old persons' houses should be as compact and easily run as possible, and that if the house has an extra room, it would not only be more difficult to look after, but would carry a higher rent and cost more to furnish with curtains and carpets. In exceptional cases, I am prepared to consider some relaxation.

Miss Herbison

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some instances an extra room leads to less work rather than more? Is he not also aware that many of these old couples have families which occasionally like to come to visit them, and that, particularly in Scotland, they have odd members of the family who come from abroad and wish to stay—[Interruption.] This is important. I have seen many of them personally, and they wish to stay with their parents rather than go into somebody else's house. Would the Minister assure me that hon. Members opposite would be content with a two-apartment house for their elderly parents?

Mr. Maclay

As I implied in my earlier answer, I recognise that there are some small houses where two bedrooms are required, and I am ready to consider any special case put forward by an authority which has a relatively large number of such families to provide for. From personal acquaintance with many of the people in these small houses, I can say that they are extraordinarily happy in them.