§ 11. Mr. Blackburnasked the Minister of Works, in view of the finding of the Select Committee on Accommodation 1953–54 that a disproportionate amount of space in the Palace of Westminster is at present occupied by other users of the Palace than honourable Members, what steps he is taking to provide alternative accommodation for these other users.
§ Lord John HopeThe allocation of space in the Palace of Westminster is a matter for the authorities of the Palace. I have had no requests from these authorities to provide alternative accommodation for the users to whom the hon. Member refers.
§ Mr. BlackburnDoes not the Minister think it is time that the control of this Palace was taken over by the House of Commons, as recommended by the Select Committee?
§ Lord John HopeThat is a matter of opinion, which is not for me to express.
§ Mrs. CastleDoes not the Minister agree that all hon. Members of this House have a very great interest in the proper use of the accommodation here? Will he not lend us his support in establishing some kind of democratic control in determining the use to which the accommodation is put?
§ Lord John HopeI have tried accurately to set out the constitutional position, and I cannot go beyond it. Within that, I am certainly not myself as Minister aware of obstruction from any quarter.
§ Mr. ShinwellIf the right hon. Gentleman is unable to express an opinion for some reason or other, does he object to the House of Commons expressing an opinion about this anachronism? Why does he not tell the Lord Great Chamberlain to mind his own business and let us decide to look after ourselves?
§ Lord John HopeObviously, I can have no objection at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is not for me to object to the House expressing an opinon. The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether I had any objection to the House expressing its opinion. The answer is that I have no objection at all. It might be very interesting.
§ 14. Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Works why the construction of galleries in the House of Commons Library as proposed by the Select Committee on Accommodation was not carried out.
§ Lord John HopeThe Library Committee agreed in 1956 that, as the estimated cost of this proposal was out of scale with the benefits gained, it must be deferred.
§ Mrs. WhiteDoes not the right hon. Gentleman realise that, in the Report on Accommodation, it was suggested that further estimates for a less elaborate arrangement should be obtained? Could he not look at the matter again, because the arguments used in favour of it in that Report still obtain?
§ Lord John HopeI think the answer to the hon. Lady's point lies in the fact that instead of 75 yards of shelving costing £20,000 having been provided, which is what would have happened had the original idea gone ahead, the same amount of shelving has been provided on the Ministers' floor at a cost of about £700.
§ Mrs. WhiteBut the question of access for Members to the shelves in the Library has not been dealt with at all.
§ 16. Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Works how many desks there are in each of the three Members' Typing Rooms; and what is the floor space of each room.
§ Lord John HopeI assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Desk Rooms in the Upper Committee Corridor. There are now five of these rooms, and the figures are as follows:
- Room 1. 18 desks—470 sq. ft.
- Room 3. 14 desks—405 sq. ft.
- Room 8. 13 desks—430 sq. ft.
- Room 9. 10 desks—320 sq. ft.
- Room 10. 17 desks—470 sq. ft.
§ Mr. HaymanIs the Minister aware that these three rooms are grossly overcrowded, imposing almost intolerable conditions on hon. Members who try to work in them? Is he also aware that the floor space available to each desk is less than that regarded as the minimum for office accommodation in the Gowers Report years ago? When is he going to do something to improve this situation?
§ Lord John HopeA comparison with the Gowers Report as it stands is not a fair one, because these standards apply to work being done the whole time in that space.
§ Mr. H. HyndIs the Minister aware that, unless he does something to improve these conditions before the Offices Bill reaches the Statute Book, he will be in danger of prosecution?
§ Lord John HopeI am obliged to the hon. Gentleman, and I neither wish that to happen nor to fail to do something to help the hon. Member as far as I can. That is exactly what I am now trying to do.
18. Mr. Slaterasked the Minister of Works what is the average number of square feet per desk provided for the use of hon. Members in Room No. 1 in the Upper Committee Corridor.
§ Lord John HopeA little over 26 sq. ft.
Mr. SlaterIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are eighteen desks in that room and that the conditions in which hon. Members have to do their work in those rooms are absolutely shocking? Does he not think the time has come when hon. Members should be given better accommodation facilities to do the work which they have been sent here to do? Should they not be granted some means of privacy for carrying out their duties? Would he not recommend that the Prime Minister, who is responsible as the "parent" of this House, should himself see the conditions in which Members have to work?
§ Lord John HopeOf course I am aware of these conditions; I have worked in them myself for about fifteen years. I quite agree with the hon. Member that they leave an awful lot to be desired—in my view, at least. That 169 is why I want to do what I can to help. I assure the hon. Member and the House that I am considering ways and means to help, but it is not easy, although I am sure something can be done.
§ Mrs. CastleIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that this accommodation works out at 19 sq. ft., less per person than that recommended in the Gowers Report? That was a minimum figure. Is not this a very shocking situation? Does he realise that he cannot get away with it by saying that these desks are not in regular use? These rooms are occupied for the most part by hon. Members on this side of the House, who use them frequently and regularly and work all the time.
§ Lord John HopeThe hon. Lady is being rather naughty. She knows as well as I do that a great deal of hon. Members' time is spent outside these rooms—for instance, in the Chamber, as now.
§ Mr. DonnellyIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no answer to this problem except the building of a private office block for the House of Commons? Can he tell the House whether any consideration is now being given to that?
§ Lord John HopeConsideration of that problem, as of other similar problems, is being given.
§ 19. Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Works when he estimates that he will be able to provide sufficient working rooms to accommodate every hon. Member of this House.
§ Lord John HopeIt is not possible to give a precise forecast yet.
§ Mr. HaymanWill the Minister take into account that this Palace was built in the middle of the nineteenth century? We are now in the second part of the twentieth century and all the executive work is far greater than it was then. Will he see that the Government seriously tackle the provision of a new office block such as was spoken of a moment ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly)?
§ Lord John HopeIf I may answer the hon. Member in the terms of this 170 question, I can assure him that it certainly will be before the first half of the twenty-first century that something is done.
§ Mr. HaymanIt is time this Government got out quickly.
§ 20. Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Works how many desks are now provided in the Palace of Westminster for the exclusive use of hon. Members or their secretaries and how many are on order.
§ Lord John HopeThere are 72 desks allocated to hon. Members in desk rooms and 109 for the use of their secretaries: in addition, there are 232 writing places in various parts of the House. Another 16 desks are on order for hon. Members, and 24 for their secretaries, for Nos. 6–7. Old Palace Yard.
§ Mrs. CastleIs the Minister not aware that what hon. Members are anxious to have is desks exclusively for their own use, not merely a place in which they can perch like a bird of passage to do a bit of writing? Is he aware that as long ago as 1954, in answer to a questionnaire by the Stokes Committee, 295 Members said they wanted such a desk for their own exclusive use, yet, according to his own figures, 100 hon. Members are still without one? Is it not intolerable that 100 hon. Members have not even a desk of their own, let alone an office?
§ Lord John HopeThere is a great deal to be said for the point of view of the hon. Member. [An HON. MEMBER: "Then say it."] Most hon. Members on both sides of the House would like to have some place of their own where they can concentrate and can keep their own things.
§ Mr. LeaveyIs my right hon. Friend aware that it seems that we are arriving at a situation where, in the view of hon. Members opposite, an Englishman's desk is his castle?
§ Mr. F. Noel-BakerIs the Minister aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) is being far too modest in this matter? What hon. Members want is not one desk crowded out by others in close proximity, but a properly appointed office in which we can have two desks, one for a secretary, with a telephone and facilities 171 not inferior to those enjoyed, for example, by medium-rank officials of local authorities? Otherwise, we cannot do our jobs properly on these premises and will have to go elsewhere.
§ Lord John HopeThe possibility of office accommodation is one of the things I am looking at. The hon. Member perhaps rather over-egged the pudding when he spoke of telephones and that sort of thing, but office accommodation is a different thing.
§ Mr. TileyIs it not possible at the moment to take steps at least to have telephones on the desks we now use? We waste hours waiting to get hold of secretaries, those few of us who are lucky enough to have them.
§ Lord John HopeYes, I shall bear that in mind.
§ 21. Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Works what decisions have so far been reached with regard to the extensive building operations visualised by the Select Committee on Accommodation, 1953–54.
§ Lord John HopeI am considering various plans for providing additional accommodation for the use of Members. As a first step, I am making available space in Nos. 6–7 Old Palace Yard as already announced in my reply to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) on 1st December, 1959, and this will be ready at the beginning of next month.
§ Mrs. CastleSurely the Minister is aware that that paltry bit of accommodation across the road is not the extensive building operations for which the Stokes Committee called urgently six years ago? It is no good the Minister expressing regret about the grossly overcrowded and inadequate conditions to which we have been referring unless he is prepared to get a move on. Will he also realise that when accommodation is provided, hon. Members on this side of the House want it to be on this site, not somewhere else? We believe that other users of the Palace should go across the road while we should be near the Chamber where we do our work.
§ Sir J. DuncanIs my right hon. Friend aware that, if there were to be building, many of us would very much regret the 172 replacing or cutting down of the beautiful catalpa trees in Old Palace Yard?
§ Mr. ChetwyndIs it not clear that from all the answers of the Minister it is high time "the wind of change" started blowing through the Palace of Westminster and we had our own Committee of the House to deal with these matters?
§ Lord John HopeThat is hardly for me to say. On the whole of this question, as hon. Members have asked it from both sides of the House, I realise perfectly well the whole House wants something substantial to be done. I realise that hon. Members do not want the accommodation to be too far away. Within these limits, I am sure the House realises perfectly well it is not going to be easy to find a solution, but I believe that one can be found. I am doing my best now to find it and to suggest it to the House.