§ 4.3 p.m.
§ Mr. John Baird (Wolverhampton, North-East)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable the British Transport Commission to manufacture and repair locomotives and rolling stock for use other than by the Commission.During the last few weeks this country has been faced with what might have been a national catastrophe—a railway strike. The problems facing British Railways are still there, and have to be solved. We are only tinkering with the problem just now.The Bill I am asking leave to introduce will make only a small contribution to the problem, but I hope that, at the same time, it will do something to alleviate the difficulties of British Railways. Under the Transport Act, 1947, British Railways are allowed to manufacture locomotives and rolling stock only for use by themselves. They are not allowed to manufacture for sale or export. If the Bill is accepted by the House, British Railways will have the right to manufacture locomotives for sale and for use by themselves.
A large number of private firms in this country manufacture rolling stock, and it is not my intention to disrupt those firms in any way. I do not want to interfere with them. They are doing a good job, but surely British Railways, if they so desired, should have the right to manufacture not only locomotives, but rolling stock. I am, however, concerned chiefly with the manufacture of locomotives, which has always been the prerogative of British Railways.
I do not know whether the House as a whole realises it, but some hon. Gentlemen opposite have been faced with this problem. There is grave disquiet in railway towns today about British Railways' modernisation plans. There will be a lot of redundancy in the locomotive shops. There is a grave fear of unemployment and, what is more important, a large number of skilled workmen who have been trained—and some of them who have followed in their father's footsteps—in the manufacture of locomotives will be lost to British Railways. A large number of locomotive shops will be closed 1146 and staff dismissed under the modernisation plan. The manufacture of new diesel engines is to be undertaken to a great extent by private enterprise.
That, of course, is in line with Government policy. The Government intend to hive off the more prosperous aspects of the nationalised industries and hand them back to private enterprise. This is true not only of the manufacture of locomotives and diesel engines. The Government are also handing back to the Pullman Car Company much of the dining car trade. Those services are still run by private enterprise, although the Government have a controlling interest.
§ Mr. Gerald Nabarro (Kidderminster)A very good thing.
§ Mr. BairdThe other day the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) spoke about selling land belonging to British Railways to private enterprise.
§ Mr. NabarroI must correct the hon. Member. I have never made a proposition of that kind, either publicly or privately.
§ Mr. BairdIt is at least in line with the argument which the hon Gentleman has been putting forward since he came into the House.
It is the deliberate policy of Her Majesty's Government to hand back to private enterprise the more lucrative aspects of the nationalised industries.
§ Mr. NabarroThat is better
§ Mr. BairdThe coming of diesel traction has raised a grave problem. British Railways still have locomotive shops, but the majority of these diesel engines will be manufactured by private enterprise. The argument is that under the Transport Act, 1947, British Railways are allowed to manufacture for use and not for export, and, therefore, the manufacture of diesel engines must be given to private enterprise because there is a growing market overseas for diesel engines and we must have a home market in which to experiment if we are to sell these diesel engines. Therefore, private enterprise must get the majority of the new engines which are being manufactured.
I am all against that. I believe that, instead of constricting the nationalised industries, we should expand them.
§ Mr. NabarroI do not.
§ Mr. BairdI know. That is where we disagree.
The nationalisation Acts which were passed between 1945 and 1950 are not sacrosanct. Many mistakes were made, but they were not of a kind which would bolster the arguments of the hon. Member for Kidderminster. Those Acts did not give the nationalised industries enough power. The weakness about nationalisation arises because we nationalised without socialising. I want to see more power given to the nationalised industries.
There is much disquiet about the situation in railway locomotive workshop towns today. Two or three weeks ago a meeting was held which was attended by representatives of all the towns which had railway locomotive workshops. Everyone was worried because of the possibility of unemployment and redundancy. Representatives came from Eastleigh—which is represented by a Conservative Member—Crewe, Swindon, Wolverhampton and Darlington. Wolverhampton considered the matter to be so important that it was represented by the mayor, the town clerk, the chairman of the Trade Council and other leading councillors, and I believe that Crewe sent similar representatives. A grave problem faces British Railways, because highly skilled staff is being made redundant and is dispersing into other industries, where its labour will not be nearly so valuable to the nation.
British Railways locomotive workshops have some of the most modern equipment in the country. They have skilled workmen and managements. I sometimes wonder whether the so-called modernisation plan is not really a plan to dismantle rather than to modernise British Railways are a national asset, whatever hon. Members opposite may say. I want to see them expanded instead of being dismantled. That is the only way we can solve the problem of British transport.
The Bill will strengthen British Railways by giving them an opportunity to go into the markets of the world and use their highly skilled labour, technical power and equipment to sell their goods. I want to see nationalisation strengthened, and not weakened.
§ 4.13 p.m.
§ Mr. William Shepherd (Cheadle)I oppose the Motion. I would make it clear at once that I have no financial interest in the making of locomotives, carriages or wagons. I do not propose to ask the House to reject the Motion because of any prejudice against nationalisation. Whether a business should indulge in extraneous activities is a question to be decided upon the basis of widely differing facts. It depends whether the business is heavily pressed at the time, whether it has the organisation to deal with extraneous activities, and what its financial position is, besides many other considerations.
I suggest that we should oppose the Bill, first, on the ground of national interest; secondly, on the ground of the interests of the Commission; and, thirdly, because it is causing grave anxiety in the 50 or more private enterprise workshops which have been established to make these goods. I have no prejudice against nationalisation; indeed, my only pride and prejudice arises from the fact that I come from Crewe, and, therefore, have some knowledge of these affairs.
The Bill is against the national interest, first, because it would increase the amount of available capacity for making locomotives, carriages and wagons, and we do not want that. If we increase that capacity, there will be a surplus within a relatively short time. We shall not be serving the national interest by establishing a capacity beyond our requirements. Secondly, because of its set-up, the Commission is not suited to indulge in the sale of locomotives overseas.
This requires very special procedures; it requires special staffs, brochures and contacts of all kinds, and the Commission is not equipped to engage in such extraneous activities. Moreover, a severe limitation has been placed upon what it can do. The hon. Member mentioned the question of modern locomotives. Even if the Commission started to make locomotives for export it would have to go to existing private manufacturers for as much as two-thirds of its requirements.
It is wrong to argue that if the Commission is not allowed this extension undue hardship will be suffered by 1149 those who are engaged in making locomotives in the Commission's workshops. Locomotive manufacture plays a very small part in the sum total of work done in railway workshops. Some people may say that it accounts for 6 per cent., and others will say 10 per cent., but at any rate it can safely be said that 90 per cent. of railway workshop work relates to maintenance and not to new construction.
§ Mr. David Price (Eastleigh)Can my hon. Friend explain why it is against the national interest for a heavy engineering machine shop—which is what a locomotive workshop is—to take up slack as any commercial engineering works is free to do? As things are at present the Commission is not allowed to do this. That is the point behind the proposed Bill. If British Railways are required to operate commercially, why should they not be allowed to do the same as any other machine workshop?
§ Mr. ShepherdThere is no basic reason why capacity should not be used, except that in providing the equipment necessary to make new locomotives the Commission will be providing equipment which will not be required in a few years' time, when we have carried out most of our modernisation programme. This is a question not of nationalisation, but of sound business judgment. It is essential that we should condition the size of our manufacturing plants to suit our requirements.
The private manufacturers of locomotives have had to depend almost entirely upon export orders for the past thirty years. They have been in an exceedingly difficult situation. Their position has become even more difficult now. For the past decade or so we have had a preferred market overseas, with Colonies and various British establishments ordering for British sources, but that market does not exist today. It is now exceedingly difficult for private manufacturers to sell locomotives overseas. If we take away from them the small consolation that they now have
§ many of these private workshops will have no further basis for existence.
§ It would be highly undesirable to place in jeopardy these privately owned manufacturing plants, which are of great value to the community and upon which many people depend for their livelihoods. If we allow the Commission to proceed as it is at present, manufacturing rather more than half of its main locomotive requirements in its own workshops, there will be enough work for all the men who seek work in those workshops.
§ Mr. Scholefield Allen (Crewe)Nonsense. The hon. Member ought to go there and ask them.
§ Mr. ShepherdIf there is some diversion of employment from a single source to a wider source it would not, in my view, be to the detriment of those who work in railway towns. I feel that there is a grave disadvantage, and I speak as one who comes from Crewe.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. No standing Order permits me to hear several hon. Members at once and this Standing Order permits me to hear a short statement only in opposition.
§ Mr. ShepherdI was saying that I think that it is not in the interest of these towns to be dependent utterly upon one source of employment. It is my strong conviction that if this situation is allowed to rest as now, with the Transport Commission supplying its own requirements as to about 60 per cent. and allowing the private operators to have a small market in this country with some assistance for their export drive, this will be, in the long run, a fair balance between private and public enterprise. On those grounds, I ask the House to reject the Motion.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Cornmittees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 135, Noes 189.
1153| Division No. 41.] | AYES | [4.22 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Bourne-Arton, A. | Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) |
| Awbery, Stan | Boyden, James | Callaghan, James |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Castle, Mrs. Barbara |
| Benn, Hn. A. Wedgwood (Brist' I, S. E.) | Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Chetwynd, George |
| Blackburn, F. | Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Cliffe, Michael |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) | Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.) |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Ross, William |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Royle, Charles (Salford, West) |
| Darling, George | Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kelley, Richard | Short, Edward |
| Deer, George | Kenyon, Clifford | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| de Freitas, Geoffrey | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Dempsey, James | Lawson, George | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Dodds, Norman | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Small, William |
| Donnelly, Desmond | Lipton, Marcus | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John | Logan, David | Snow, Julian |
| Evans, Albert | Longbottom, Charles | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Finch, Harold | Loughlin, Charles | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Fletcher, Eric | McCann, John | Stonehouse, John |
| Foot, Dingle | MacColl, James | Stones, William |
| Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh | McInnes, James | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall) |
| Ginsburg, David | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Swingler, Stephen |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Mackie, John | Sylvester, George |
| Gourlay, Harry | McLeavy, Frank | Symonds, J. B. |
| Greenwood, Anthony | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Grey, Charles | Manuel, A. C. | Taylor, John (West Lothian) |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Mapp, Charles | Thornton, Ernest |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Marsh, Richard | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) | Millan, Bruce | Warbey, William |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Monslow, Walter | Watkins, Tudor |
| Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Moody, A. S. | Weitzman, David |
| Hayman, F. H. | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Healey, Denis | Oliver, G. H. | Wheeldon, W. E. |
| Herbison, Miss Margaret | Owen, Will | Whitlock, William |
| Hill, J. (Midlothian) | Peart, Frederick | Wigg, George |
| Hilton, A. V. | Plummer, Sir Leslie | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Holman, Percy | Prentice, R. E. | Willey, Frederick |
| Howell, Charles A. | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Hoy, James H. | Proctor, W. T. | Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Rankin, John | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Redhead, E. C. | Woof, Robert |
| Hunter, A. E. | Reid, William | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Reynolds, G. W. | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Hynd, John (Attercliffe) | Robens, Rt. Hon. Alfred | |
| Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Mr. Scholefield Allen and Mr. Baird. |
| NOES | ||
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Costain, A. P. | Hocking, Philip N. |
| Aitken, W. T. | Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Holland, Philip |
| Allason, James | Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Hollingworth, John |
| Ashton, Sir Hubert | Critchley, Julian | Hopkins, Alan |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Currie, G. B. H. | Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) |
| Balniel, Lord | Dance, James | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John |
| Barlow, Sir John | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hurd, Sir Anthony |
| Barter, John | Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Batsford, Brian | Doughty, Charles | Jackson, John |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Drayson, G. B. | James, David |
| Bell, Ronald (S. Bucks.) | Duthie, Sir William | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) |
| Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) | Eden, John | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) | Elliott, R. W. | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) |
| Berkeley, Humphry | Emery, Peter | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey |
| Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth) | Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Kerby, Capt. Henry |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Farey-Jones, F. W. | Kerr, Sir Hamilton |
| Bingham, R. M. | Farr, John | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel | Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Kirk, Peter |
| Bossom, Clive | Freeth, Denzil | Lindsay, Martin |
| Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) | Gammans, Lady | Litchfield, Capt. John |
| Box, Donald | Gardner, Edward | Loveys, Walter H. |
| Braine, Bernard | Gibson-Watt, David | Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby |
| Brewis, John | Glover, Sir Douglas | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) | MacArthur, Ian |
| Browne, Percy (Torrington) | Goodhart, Philip | McLaren, Martin |
| Bullard, Denys | Goodhew, Victor | McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia |
| Burden, F. A. | Gower, Raymond | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.) |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Grant, Rt. Hon. William (Woodside) | McMaster, Stanley |
| Carr, Compton (Barons Court) | Green, Alan | Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) |
| Carr, Robert (Mitcham) | Gresham Cooke, R. | Maginnis, John E. |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Grimond, J. | Maitland, Cdr. J. W. |
| Chataway, Christopher | Grimston, Sir Robert | Marten, Neil |
| Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) | Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. | Mathew, Robert (Honiton) |
| Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) | Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. |
| Cleaver, Leonard | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Mills, Stratton |
| Cole, Norman | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macolesf'd) | Morrison, John |
| Collard, Richard | Hendry, Forbes | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles |
| Cooke, Robert | Hicks Beach, Maj. W. | Nicholson, Sir Godfrey |
| Cordle, John | Hiley, Joseph | Nugent, Sir Richard |
| Corfield, F. V. | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie |
| Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Simon, Sir Jocelyn | Turner, Colin |
| Osborne, Cyril (Louth) | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Page, Graham | Stanley, Hon. Richard | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John |
| Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) | Stodart, J. A. | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Peel, John | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm | Wade, Donald |
| Percival, Ian | Storey, Sir Samuel | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone) |
| Peyton, John | Studholme, Sir Henry | Wall, Patrick |
| Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth | Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury) | Watts, James |
| Pilkington, Capt. Richard | Sumner, Donald (Orpington) | Webster, David |
| Pitt, Miss Edith | Tapsell, Peter | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Pott, Percivall | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Powell, J. Enoch | Teeling, William | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Prior, J. M. L. | Temple, John M. | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Proudfoot, Wilfred | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Ramsden, James | Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter | Woodhouse, C. M. |
| Rees, Hugh | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) | Thorpe, Jeremy | Worsley, Marcus |
| Roots, William | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) | |
| Seymour, Leslie | Tilney, John (Wavertree) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mr. Nabarro and Mr. Shepherd. |