HC Deb 11 February 1960 vol 617 cc629-31
5. Mr. Holland

asked the Minister of Education how many teachers currently employed in maintained schools have received no teachers' training; and how many obtained O-level passes in the General Certificate of Education in not more than three subjects.

Sir D. Eccles

Of the 256,000 teachers employed in maintained schools on the 31st March, 1958, 219,500 had received teacher training in England or Wales. Of the 36,400 who had not, about 24,000 were graduates or had other qualifications exempting them from the need for teacher training. I have no information from which to answer the second part of the Question. The minimum qualification for normal entry to a training college is five O-level passes.

Mr. Holland

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that authority has been given by his Department for people to teach who have only the qualification of two or three O-level G.C.E. passes? Can he give an assurance that the policy of his Department in future will be not to give authority for such people to teach?

Sir D. Eccles

We are in a very difficult period when we are changing over from the two-year to the three-year course, and I think that temporarily the teaching profession will understand that we have to get teachers from any good source we can.

Mr. G. Thomas

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the teaching profession will not understand that the right hon. Gentleman should go as low as the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Holland) has said? Is he aware that the teaching profession was firmly assured in a speech at the Government Dispatch Box that it would be possible to enter upon the three-year period of training without lowering in any way the standards required from those serving in our schools?

Sir D. Eccles

I think that this is quite a small exception. There were only 168 students in 1959 admitted with qualifications lower than five O-level passes in the G.C.E., and they had been approved by the Institute of Education.

10 and 11. Mr. Millan

asked the Minister of Education (1) what provision is made to allow service by teachers serving overseas in Commonwealth countries under exchange or long-term schemes to rank for pension rights when they return;

(2) what provision is made to allow service by teachers serving overseas in colonial countries under exchange or long-term schemes to rank for pension rights when they return.

Sir D. Eccles

Under normal exchange arrangements, when the teacher continues in the employ of the home employer, service continues to rank for pension in the ordinary way. For other types of service in Commonwealth countries, arrangements can be made to safeguard the teacher's pension position. As these are somewhat complicated, I am sending detailed information to the hon. Member.

22. Mr. G. Thomas

asked the Minister of Education if he will give the number of people employed as teachers in secondary schools and primary schools, respectively, who have received no approved course of teacher training, and the comparable number of such people for 1954 and 1957, respectively.

Sir D. Eccles

I would refer the hon. Member to the first part of the reply given this afternoon to the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Holland). Comparable figures for 1957 are 251,700 teachers, of whom 35,500 had not received teacher training, and for 1954 the comparable figures are 231,000 and 32,800. Figures are not available to show how many of these teachers are employed in primary and how many in secondary schools.

Mr. Thomas

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is quite unfair to children who have these unqualified teachers—I am not referring to graduates but to temporary teachers who have the Ordinary level certificate—and that he ought to take a stand against admitting these people with hardly any qualification into schools?

Sir D. Eccles

That is the long-term aim, but the situation is difficult while the bulge is going through the schools, and I would have thought that, as the teaching profession now has the three-year training course, which is a very good thing, it might understand the immediate difficulties.

Mr. Eden

While it is obviously important that teachers should have these qualifications, is it not also a fact that many teachers who have qualifications on paper are not necessarily best qualified to impart knowledge to children? Will my right hon. Friend try to ensure that those who find that they are natural teachers are encouraged to take the necessary paper qualifications?

Sir D. Eccles

I think that the teachers are doing very well under great difficulties, and I am always anxious to recruit mature people who find that they have a bent for teaching.