§ 8. Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to what extent the navy radiation monitoring team will co-operate with the civil defence authorities in the neighbourhood of the Holy Loch.
§ Mr. C. Ian Orr-EwingLocal administrative arrangements are being worked out at present: these will provide for co-operation between naval and civil authorities, including where necessary civil defence authorities.
§ Mr. HughesCan the Minister tell us something about the functions of this new committee which has been set up by the Admiralty, consisting of 20 representatives of different organisations? Can he say why the National Farmers' Union and the Milk Marketing Board are being represented on this committee? Is it because the Admiralty fear that there will be contamination of the crops and the milk in case of radioactivity?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingThat is entirely another question. I was asked about co-operation with the civil defence authorities and not with the N.F.U.
§ Mr. PagetCan the hon. Gentleman say whether there is any radiation from an atomic warhead until it blows up?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingNo, Sir; there is not.
§ Mr. LiptonHow do you know?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingI took my degree in nuclear physics.
§ 9. Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what total additional expenditure his Department will incur as a result of the agreement to establish a Polaris base at Holy Loch.
§ Mr. C. Ian Orr-EwingDetailed requirements of the support facilities at Holy Loch, where there will be a staging post rather than a base, are still being discussed with the United States Navy. As already stated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence, if any costs fall on the United Kingdom they are likely to be very small.
§ Mr. HughesIf submarines costing £50 million each are going up and down the Clyde, can the Minister explain why 1242 there will be no naval precautions to protect them against possible attack? Does not this mean that the British Admiralty will be called upon to play an increasing part, which will help to swell still further the already swollen Navy Estimates?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingMy right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear in his first and subsequent statements that the protection of these ships would be carefully controlled and regulated between the U.S. Navy and the Royal Navy—
§ Mr. ManuelNo, he did not.
§ Mr. Orr-Ewing—in territorial waters.
§ 12. Mr. W. Baxterasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what is the nature of the equipment to be used by the Navy's nuclear monitoring team at Holy Loch; and what is the cost.
§ Mr. C. Ian Orr-EwingThe equipment includes measuring instruments of various types designed to measure radiation levels in the air, in the water or on the ground. The capital cost is £7,700.
§ Mr. BaxterCan the Minister say whether this system will give any warning to the civil population? If, by some mischance, it should operate, what action do the Government propose to take to safeguard the health and lives of the people living in this densely populated area?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingI think I made it clear in my earlier statement that this team is no different, in principle, from the monitoring teams which exist round all nuclear establishments, whether they are civil power stations or other types. It is a precautionary measure. At this stage I do not think I need go further into the way in which it will operate. We are in the closest touch with local authorities, as the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has pointed out.
§ Mr. PagetUnless there is an accident and something blows up, either in an engine or a warhead, is there anything at all to measure?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingNo, Sir, but I think it right, both for our own nuclear submarines and visiting nuclear submarines, that we should have this sort of monitoring team as a precautionary measure. There might just as well be an accident on one of our own submarines. By 1243 virtue of this agreement we are learning a great deal about the technology of the matter, which will be invaluable when "Dreadnought" becomes available.
§ 14. Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to what extent the Medical Research Council and other scientific bodies will be concerned in the monitoring for radioactivity on the Clyde, following the establishment of a Polaris missile submarine base in Holy Loch.
§ Mr. C. Ian Orr-EwingThe safety limits to be adopted in the monitoring for radioactivity will be well within those recommended by the Medical Research Council and the International Commission on Radiological Protection.
§ Dr. MabonIs it intended to publish the findings of the monitoring team so that we can compare them with published reports? If that is not to be done, will the information be given directly to the local liaison committee, which has specifically said that it is not being done at present?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingIt is not intended to publish the results of work of the monitoring team any more than the results of the work of monitoring teams around other nuclear establishments are published. We shall keep in touch with the liaison team with whom we shall meet regularly under this arrangement.
§ Mr. ManuelBut in reply to a previous Question, did not the hon. Gentleman indicate quite clearly that no radioactive material or effluent would be discharged? Now he is endorsing the setting up of monitoring teams to test the presence of certain standards of radioactive material caused by the refuelling of the submarines and other necessary work on them when they come into the floating dock in Holy Loch.
§ Mr. Orr-EwingI was under the impression that I said that there was no radiation from atomic warheads unless there had been an accident. There is not an alarming amount of radiation from ordinary nuclear propulsion machinery under normal conditions, but it is wise to keep a check, because when one is starting up or stopping this machinery there might be some slight effluent, and this should be checked regularly.
§ 18. Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether it is his intention to establish a security area in the Holy Loch similar to those established in Scotland during the last war.
§ Mr. C. Ian Orr-EwingNo, Sir. Security arrangements will, however, be made by the Admiralty and the United States Navy. They will not affect access to the Loch or the movement of shipping therein.
§ Mr. MacMillanDespite our reversed relationship with the Americans in the matter of protection of colonies, is it not quite clear that at some stage we must throw around this new nuclear volcano in the Holy Loch some security arrangements by land and sea? Does the hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that it will be wide open for people to approach the missile depot ship "Proteus" by land or sea for the purpose of sabotage or anything else? Does he forget that in the last war we had in the West Highlands and Islands security arrangements for much less important and dangerous targets? Does he appreciate that this new danger is placed right in the middle of the greatest shipbuilding river in the world, the Clyde, and right alongside 2½ million population of Scotland in its most densely concentrated area? Does he appreciate that this is the greatest danger we have yet imported?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If we have questions like this we shall never get Question Time into proper form. I am sure the hon. Member can bring his question to an end.
§ Mr. MacMillanWill the Minister answer the question?
§ Mr. Orr-EwingThe hon. Member was referring to security arrangements in the last war. Those were brought about under Defence Regulations, which no longer exist. Of course there will be a measure of security, but there is nothing in the banning of shipping or people from that area as suggested in this Question.
§ Mr. MacMillanSince this matter raises a completely new situation, I beg to give notice that, in view of the most 1245 inadequate nature of the reply, I shall raise the matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.