HC Deb 05 December 1960 vol 631 cc862-7
Mr. M. Stewart

(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in view of the worsening flood situation during the weekend, he will make a statement of the immediate action that the Government intend to take.

The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Mr. Henry Brooke)

My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Welsh Affairs has today been visiting flooded areas in Wales and will report to me. One of my engineering inspectors has gone to the flooded areas of the Severn and the Wye to examine the situation there at first hand and to meet the local authorities. Locally based engineering inspectors of the Ministry of Agriculture are also available in each area to give help.

The undertaking I gave last month that the Government will offer financial assistance where necessary applies equally to all new areas where torrential rain has brought flooding.

I said then that, where it became clear that an unreasonable burden would fall on the rates as a result of the floods unless a local authority were given special assistance, the Government would consider requests for special financial aid. Where local appeal funds did not meet the needs of those who suffered distress, the Government would supplement them.

Those undertakings apply to all flooded areas in England and Wales, and local authorities can accordingly go forward without fear on the essential work of flood relief. Those who are organising local appeals can proceed in the firm knowledge that the Government will supplement their efforts if need be.

The emergency services are all working well, and any local authority which needs advice or assistance can get in touch with my Ministry by telephone instantly. Everything that can be done to help is being done.

Mr. Stewart

But could not the right hon. Gentleman go a little further than that? While I do not in any way wish to minimise the extent to which Wales has suffered over the weekend, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the striking features of the events of the weekend has been the very large number of counties in all parts of the kingdom that have suffered; and that we are faced with something that now appears to be occurring on a greater scale than we have been used to in previous years?

Can the Minister tell us anything fur-their about his consideration of proposals to set up a national fund to deal with disasters of this kind? Would he not agree that the problem of flooding is closely linked with that of water conservation? Does he remember that the Parliamentary Secretary told us on 11th November that those two questions were being studied by a Committee which hoped to report early next summer? Ought not the Minister to try to get the report, and some action on it, earlier than that?

Mr. Brooke

The flooding was extensive during the weekend. It was much more severe in certain areas than in others. In fact, this has been the wettest autumn that the country has experienced in this century, and until the scientists learn how to control rainfall, no nation can guarantee that torrential rain will not cause flooding.

The hon. Gentleman asked me whether I could do anything to speed up the Report of the sub-committee of the Central Advisory Water Committee concerned with conservation. I am quite certain that that sub-committee is working as fast as it can, and I am hoping to receive its report within the next few months, when it will certainly receive immediate consideration by the Government.

On the question of a national disaster fund, I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on that the other day.

Mr. G. Brown

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a national problem and requires dealing with in a countrywide way? As to its being the wettest autumn for a long time, is he not aware that this weekend in my own division, where I was, we could have dealt with the wettest autumn for very many years if the brooks, ditches and river courses had been dealt with by the authorities whose job it is to deal with them; and that this has been explained so very often on the ground of lack of a national policy? Will the Minister go into this rather urgently?

Will he also arrange with local authorities that those people whose houses have been made a shambles this weekend will, without question, be able to have fuel and disinfectant so that they can deal with their own personal problems without the question of cost immediately arising?

Mr. Brooke

I have no doubt that the local authorities, the National Assistance Board and all other agencies acting locally will do everything in their power to help those people, who, I think, deserve the sympathy of every one of us.

As to this being a national problem, I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that there is a Bill before a Standing Committee at this very moment which makes fresh provision for many of these watercourses, some of which have not been under the control of any authority until now.

Mr. Dudley Williams

Speaking as the Member for one of the worst-hit areas in the country, may I impress on my right hon. Friend the importance of giving adequate warning to people if flooding is likely to occur? Is he aware that since the last disaster at Exeter we have introduced such a warning system, and that on this occasion it was possible to give quite considerable notice that this danger was likely to occur?

Mr. Brooke

Yes, Sir, I have heard of the steps that have been successfully taken at Exeter. I think that we owe a great deal to our experience with Civil Defence that early warnings have been given almost everywhere. Fortunately, that is the one good aspect of the whole disaster—loss of life has been extraordinarily small.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the Minister aware that our immediate problem, at any rate in the country districts and in the flooded towns, is to get the water pumped from people's houses? Is he aware that in many boroughs there is a great shortage of pumping machinery? Barnstaple could manage with another half-dozen machines as a matter of urgency. Could he consult his officers throughout the country to see whether there are machines available in areas that are not flooded, and have them shipped to areas that have been flooded?

Further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have received the very valuable support of the people in the fire services but that, apparently, a directive has gone out—at any rate, in Exeter—telling them that they are not to help in pumping out flooded buildings? Will he find out whether that is true and, if it is true, will he reverse the decision?

Mr. Brooke

I have no knowledge of any decision about the fire service in Exeter or Devon. What I have said, and I am very glad to have the opportunity to repeat it, is that any local authority which requires assistance, or is short of equipment or anything it needs, and has difficulty in solving its own problem locally, should get on the telephone instantly to my Department, when we will do everything we can to help.

Mr. de Freitas

Does the Minister realise that the Bill to which he referred as being in a Standing Committee does nothing whatsoever to associate water conservation with flood control? Will he bear in mind that there is on the Order Paper a Motion, signed by nearly 100 hon. Members, asking the Government to take notice of the two together as a national problem?

[That this House, sympathising with those who have suffered in the recent floods and believing that much of this flooding can be prevented from happening again, that many drainage schemes are inadequate, that the method of levying the drainage rate is unjust and that the need for water conservation is not fully appreciated, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to introduce legislation to co-ordinate flood prevention, drainage and water conservation and to permit the construction and maintenance of the necessary works and reservoirs at the expense of the country as a whole.]

Mr. Brooke

The Government were thinking about this before the House of Commons was—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It was I who took the initiative in asking my Central Advisory Water Committee to go into the matter, and to report to me.

Later—

Mr. Callaghan

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I call your attention to the fact—I think that this is a matter of order—that although the statement made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government referred very specifically to floods in Wales, a Welsh Member has not been able to ask a question?

Mr. Speaker

It is a point of order. I urgently say that, if we were to have supplementary questions from every hon. Member whose constituency is affected by floods, I think that even the House would become weary of the number of supplementary questions.

Mr. Callaghan

But would you allow me to point out to you, Sir, that, from the point of view of South Wales, none of the references of the Minister is really in issue here? In fact, the cause is very well known, namely, a very high tide meeting the water coming down from the valleys. May we not ask the Minister what steps are being taken, through the medium of his Bill, to prevent this sort of occurrence resulting in disaster?

Mr. Speaker

I am sorry, but it is absolutely essential that there should be some limit to supplementary questions. It is really no good for the House, on the one hand, to blame me because we do not get through enough Questions and, on the other, to complain when some kind of austerity is imposed in order that we may attain that end.

Mr. C. Pannell

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is not this in rather a different category? By ancient custom, the House always listens when any matter of distress affects a Member's constituency. We know full well that Questions are put about mining disasters, about accidents, about acts of God, and recently Mr. Speaker Morrison even allowed a Private Notice Question because there had been a near-miss between two aircraft.

With great respect, Sir, I would suggest that, when an hon. Member's constituency has been affected, it is within the usual custom for him to be allowed to ask a question about it.

Mr. Speaker

I have not the slightest idea how many hon. Members' sonstituencies were not affected by the floods this weekend. In fact, the floods are so general that I really would not know from what I have read. I do not, of course, desire to bring these matters to an end sooner than they should be, but if one on each occasion allows questions from a large number of hon. Members rising then we really shall never get on to other matters after Question Time That is the difficulty.

Mr. Callaghan

On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, will you allow me to point out that there were, in fact, only three hon. Members rising? In fact, we were past the hour for the end of Oral Questions so that no one was prevented from asking his Question. The only business before the House now, so far as I can see, is the Betting Levy Bill. Is that really supposed to be a matter for comparison with the distress which has been caused to thousands of people during the last day or two?

Mr. Speaker

The worth of the business which the House appoints to consider on any given day is not for me; that is for the House.

Mr. M. Stewart

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I understood what you said aright, you felt that you were not able to call all hon. Members whose constituencies were affected by floods because there were so many and the floods were go general. Does that not underline the national nature of the problem and the desirability of the Government finding time to debate the Motion on the Order Paper to which my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) referred?

Mr. Speaker

That cannot be a point of order.