§ 5. Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will advise that the Vagrancy Act, 1960, be disallowed under the provisions of the Southern Rhodesia Constitutional Letters Patent of 1923 in view of its infringement of human rights.
§ Mr. SandysI am not satisfied that the circumstances would justify the exercise of this exceptional constitutional power.
§ Mr. BrockwayWhile recognising that this is exceptional, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a Bill which gives the police the right, without a warrant, to arrest a man only on the ground that he is unemployed, is contrary to all the principles of our Commonwealth? In view of that, will he urge the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia to reconsider this very distasteful legislation?
§ Mr. SandysI am not sure that the hon. Member has quite accurately defined that provision in the Act. I have, naturally, looked at this very closely and have taken advice upon it. I am not sure that it would necessarily, as the hon. Member has assumed, infringe the provisions of the Code of the European Convention on Human Rights, which provides specifically for the detention of vagrants.
§ Mr. StonehouseIs not the extent of this Measure deplorable? Hundreds of Africans are being picked up off the streets, and their only offence is that they cannot find a job. What is the Secretary of State doing to secure the release of British-protected persons and British citizens who have been arrested under the terms of this Act?
§ Mr. BrockwayFifteen hundred of them.
§ Mr. SandysI do not think that that is the figure. I have already given information to the House about the numbers. I have not got them with me today, but I have been asked a Question about them. I have given them and I think that the picture is very different from what has been suggested.
§ Mr. CallaghanMay we have the Government's position made clear? They have power, in their view, to act, but 561 have decided not to act, to disallow this legislation. That is the first question to which the country would like an answer.
The second question to which the country would also like an answer is whether, even assuming that they have not the power to act, the Government propose to take up this issue with the Southern Rhodesian Prime Minister, in view of the repugnance with which this Act is viewed and judged by most people in this country.
§ Mr. SandysWe have to behave very carefully in a matter of this kind. When Parliament gives powers to a Territory for which we are responsible, and confers constitutional powers upon it, we must be very careful not to do its job for it. We get into very great difficulty if we start duplicating the executive powers or the legislative powers of a Territory overseas.
Parliament has decided to confer powers upon the Legislature of Southern Rhodesia. Southern Rhodesia has exercised these powers in this manner. We have certain reserve powers provided for in the Constitution. Clearly, however, these reserve powers are only intended to be used, and it would be proper only to use them, in the most exceptional circumstances. It would be highly dangerous and highly improper if the British Government were expected to look at every Act passed by the Southern Rhodesian Legislature and to decide whether in all respects we approved of that legislation. It is only in the most exceptional case that we should use these exceptional powers.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Biggs-Davison. Question No. 6.
§ Mr. CallaghanOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are we not to be allowed the opportunity of taking this matter further now?
§ Mr. SpeakerI get into severe trouble with the House if we do not get on with Questions.
§ Mr. CallaghanOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the grave dissatisfaction with the nature of the Secretary of State's reply, I must give notice that we shall seek to return to this matter later, on the Adjournment or in any other way.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonQuestion No. 6.
§ Mr. StonehouseFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I seek your guidance? I have put a Question about British-protected persons and British citizens who have been arrested in Southern Rhodesia. How can we secure a reply from the Secretary of State in view of his refusal to answer that point today?
§ Mr. SpeakerI cannot compel Ministers to answer anything.
§ Mr. SandysFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I thought that I had explained to the House that I had already answered a Question on that point. If the hon. Member will look it up in HANSARD he will see the figures.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Several hon. Members are rising to points of order. Mr. Stonehouse.
§ Mr. StonehouseFurther to that point of order. I have already asked the Secretary of State for the numbers involved, but he has not been prepared to take action to secure the release of the British protected persons and British subjects. It was that question which I asked him today.
§ Mr. SpeakerIf he has not answered it—I shall have to look at the context to find out—the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) is at liberty to put down a further Question.
§ Mr. P. WilliamsOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have had supplementary questions on a number of important subjects, but it appears, unfortunately, that no one on this side of the House has caught your eye.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We cannot discuss the matter of whom I select or see in the middle of Question Time. Mr. Biggs-Davison.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonQuestion No. 6.
§ Mr. BrockwayOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I also indicate that in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Secretary of State's reply—
§ Mr. SpeakerNo. I do not think that the hon. Member can do so—unless I am confused. The matter is barred by the indication of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) from the Front Bench.
§ Mr. SandysI am sorry that the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) now adds dissatisfaction to his earlier qualified congratulations.