Clause 5.—(REGULATIONS.) (Hansard, 28 April 1960)

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon)
I beg to move, in page 7, line 45, at the end to insert: and for the payment by the Minister of travelling or other expenses reasonably incurred by any person as a member of any such committee". 492 This is a consequential Amendment to enable minor travelling and other expenses to be met out of public funds where, hitherto, they have been met out of the funds of the Corporations.

§ Mr. G. R. Strauss (Vauxhall)
I do not want to raise any point on this Amendment, but as we are in Committee for a very short time, and the rules are a little easier, and as it may affect our consideration of the business before us, would it be possible for the Minister to reply to the question which has been asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) so that we know where we are; how long the proceedings are likely to be this evening; whether the right hon. Gentleman wants to finish the Bill, and what he has in mind.

§ The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys)
I am very glad to have this opportunity of saying—I could not say it before, because I should have been out of order—that it is our hope that we shall complete the Bill tonight. I hope that the House will not think it necessary to have a very prolonged debate on Third Reading, but we have no wish to curtail the freedom or length of the discussion. We had better see how we get on before we decide whether any special measures are necessary.

§ Mr. Rankin
May I say, Sir Gordon, that I hope that the Minister will not press the attitude which is implicit in what he said? He did not seem to say— at least, that was my inference—that he intended to press the Bill through to the bitter end tonight. Nevertheless, I know that one or two hon. Members on this side of the Committee will be severely inconvenienced if he takes up that attitude.
I agree with the purpose of the Amendment, but it seems to be a very wordy affair. When I read it I instinctively understood it to mean: and for the payment by the Minister of expenses incurred by a member of any such committee. I will leave the Parliamentary Secretary to explain why the Government have had to use so many words to achieve what seems capable of being achieved by far fewer words. If we distinguish between travelling and other expenses, it seems legitimate to ask what kind of 493 other expenses are envisaged. If a person incurs expenses in the course of carrying out his duties on a committee to which he has been appointed by the right hon. Gentleman, all expenses, travelling or otherwise, will surely be paid for. It does not seem to me that any distinction should be made.
The use of the word "reasonable" naturally makes one think that some expenses are unreasonably incurred. I assume that the right hon. Gentleman must have in mind the fact that some people incur unreasonable expenses. I should like to know how the expenses are judged, and how the differentiation will be made between unreasonable and reasonable expenses before they are paid over.
Why should we have the roundabout phrase, by any person as a member of any such committee"? That appears to be rodomontade in excelsis. When I read it I thought that it could be put much more simply. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will be able fully to justify this seemingly excessive use of words.

§ Mr. George Chetwynd (Stockton-on-Tees)
The Amendment is necessary, because we agreed in Committee that we should have regional advisory committees, but so that we may be able to judge how much money is likely to be spent on this matter, can the Minister say what committees he is setting up, and how many members they will have?

§ Mr. Sandys
Without committing myself finally, I have in mind that these committees will be of the same kind as have existed hitherto, that is to say, one for Scotland, one for Northern Ireland, and one for Wales. England is usually thought to be able to look after itself.
The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) complained of the excess of words in the Amendment, but it is in as precise a form as it can be drafted. It must provide for a member incurring these expenses as a member of such a committee and not in some other capacity. The point of the Amendment is that, at the moment, expenses incurred by members of advisory committees are met out of the money of the Airways Corporations. Since these committees 494 will now be responsible to the Board they will have to be met out of public funds. Therefore, some provision of this kind was necessary. It is consequential on the decision taken by the Standing Committee.

§ Mr. Charles Loughlin (Gloucestershire, West)
I do not want to delay the Minister, so I will be as brief as I can. Are not the words "necessarily incurred" more practicable than "reasonably incurred" in this context? Will the Minister look at that with a view to altering it in another place?

§ Mr. Sandys
I will certainly have a look at it.