§ Mr. ShinwellWith your consent, Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Leader of the House on the business for tomorrow. Will he reconsider the Government's decision to conclude the debate on the Motion of censure submitted by the official Opposition at 7 p.m.? Is he aware that this is a very important topic and that its implications can range over a very wide field? I have ascertained that there is very strong feeling, not only on this side of the House, but on the other side, among hon. Members who feel that they would like to take part in this debate. In the circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the debate should continue until the usual time of 10 p.m.?
§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler)The right hon. Member has not got it quite right. It is not a Government decision. The Opposition put down a Motion of censure, a challenge which the Government have been 33 very glad to accept. The Opposition also asked us for a short debate, up to 7 p.m., which we also accepted. As we have done nothing but accept the wishes of the Opposition, with a desire ultimately to defeat them utterly on their Motion, if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to raise the matter I think that he should raise it with the official Opposition.
Mr. H. WilsonI hope that there will be no misunderstanding about this. The Motion on the Order Paper is relatively narrow, dealing with the Government's responsibility for the waste and inefficiency in the Blue Streak programme. We have demanded a full-dress inquiry into it, and certainly we do not want to do anything tomorrow which would rule out a very wide and searching debate on a later occasion of all the issues raised by what has happened. But as far as we are concerned, if there is a feeling in any part of the House that by 7 p.m. we cannot adequately debate the issues covered by this Motion, we shall be the last people to want to end the debate at 7 p.m.
Provided, therefore, that the Leader of the House does not propose taking Government business after 10 p.m., and that he is prepared to clear the Government business out of the way, we shall be quite happy, and, indeed, will welcome, the debate being as searching as possible on this very important Motion of censure.
§ Mr. ButlerThe nature of the Motion put on the Order Paper is the responsibility of the Opposition. They can either limit it or enlarge it as they like. They chose to phrase it as they did. I must make the reservation on Government business that in any suggestion made that will meet the wishes of the House we should have an opportunity of obtaining at least a part, if not all, of Government business. That is a matter on which I must absolutely reserve my position.
The debate on the Motion is not one which we wish to shorten, because our case is perfectly good and we should like to put it in answer to any representations made from either side of the House. I therefore think that the best arrangement which we can make, subject to what I have said about the entire responsibility of the Opposition in this matter 34 and also about the choice of the hour of 7 p.m., is that we should have a discussion through the usual channels as to how best to meet the wishes of the House.
§ Mr. ShinwellIn view of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) has said about the desirability of having the debate continued beyond 7 p.m. if hon. Members so wish, and of what the Leader of the House has said, can we not now agree that the debate should continue until 10 p.m.? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the debate is curtailed in the manner indicated, it will mean that back-bench Members will be almost completely excluded from the debate, because there will be two speakers from the Front Bench on this side of the House and two speakers from the Government Front Bench, and possibly a Liberal speaker. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The Liberal Party have an Amendment on the Order Paper and they have as much right to express their views as have hon. Members opposite. I will say a word on their behalf, even if they cannot say it themselves.
In view of that, will not the right hon. Gentleman now agree to extend the debate? Is he aware that, in any event, there is nothing in the Standing Order which would prevent hon. Members from rising at 7 p.m. and continuing the debate? Is not that the position?
§ Mr. ButlerYes, Sir. I am perfectly well aware of that point. Hitherto, we have done our best to meet the constitutional wishes of the Opposition. I am now faced with the desire of other hon. Members that the debate should be lengthened. That desire is also being voiced by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) at rather a late hour. What I suggest, therefore, is that we have the normal discussions between ourselves and try to meet the convenience of the House. For the purpose of warning hon. Members, I think it likely that the debate will be continued, but I should like to reserve my position about Government business and other matters for general discussion between the usual channels.
§ Mr. WiggDoes not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this is not battledore and shuttlecock between the Front 35 Benches on each side of the House? This is an issue of transcendental importance to the future security of this country. Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore have in mind his duty, as Leader of the House, to give full weight to the minority views on both sides of the House?
§ Mr. ButlerYes, Sir. That is precisely why I said, after reminding the Opposition of their responsibility in this matter, that it would be reasonable to consider an extension of the debate. The matter is one of great importance. We realise that the main battledore and shuttlecock is between hon. Members on the other side of the House, and not on this side.
Mr. H. WilsonSince the Leader of the House has suggested that the consequential effects of this arrangement be discussed through the usual channels, we can obviously leave it there, but I ask him to note that we have in no way accepted the principle that we are agreeable to the rest of the Government business being taken tomorrow after the end of this debate.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind the point on which I pressed him previously—that since we are concerned, and the House of Commons has a duty to be concerned, with the expenditure of £100 million on this project, and since we are dealing particularly with that issue tomorrow, we shall want a debate before very long on the much wider issues of defence and foreign policy raised by the events of 13th April?
§ Mr. ButlerI understand that the matter is reserved for discussion between 36 the usual channels. That we shall accept. As for any future debate, we are always ready to debate and answer criticisms by the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else.
§ Several Hon. Members rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We must not consume today in discussing tomorrow.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanOn a point of order. Arising out of those exchanges, and principally what has been said in them quite recently about further discussions through the usual channels, and presumably agreements to be thereby reached, may I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, for your guidance, that whatever agreements may be reached through the usual channels the Motion of censure, when it is called, can come to an end only in one of three ways—first, by no more speakers rising to their feet; secondly, by the hour of ten o'clock being reached; and, thirdly, by a Motion for the Closure? The House itself is not bound by whatever discussions may take place through the usual channels or whatever agreements may be reached.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am not concerned with the usual channels. I am concerned with the practice and the Standing Orders. What the hon. Member says is quite right.