ROYAL ASSENT (Hansard, 13 April 1960)

The Gentleman-Usher of the Black Rod
Mr. Speaker—

Hon. Members
No.

§ Mr. Speaker
I would ask hon. Members to consult the dignity of the House and to assist me at this time in the maintenance of order. Our matters can, without inconvenience, and I hope with due courtesy to everybody concerned, be considered when we have dealt with this matter.

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I shall now proceed in due order. There was rather a lot of noise at the time, and I may be wrong, but I rather think that, as I resorted to other duties, it was the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram) who was on his feet, seeking to raise a point of order. If that is wrong, I do not want to hear the hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. Oram
I was about to raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker, apparently at an inappropriate moment. Since the ceremony which takes place outside the closed doors is to indicate that this House admits here only those people whom it wishes to admit, ought we not, equally, to have the right to admit them only at a time suitable to the House?

§ Mr. S. Silverman
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Has it not always been held that the admission of Black Rod on such occasions is by the consent of the House? Has it not always been in accordance with our traditions that the consent of the House means the consent of every hon. Member, as it does on the withdrawal of a Motion, the withdrawal of an Amendment, or the right to speak a second time? If any hon. Member of the House says "No", does that not mean that the House has not given its consent?
On this occasion, I think that I heard more than one shout of "No". With great respect, Sir, I submit to you that that meant that the House had, at any rate for the time being, withheld its consent, and, if the House withheld its consent, then Black Rod had no right here and all subsequent proceedings were out of order.
Unless you felt ready to do so, Sir, I should not ask for a considered opinion on so unusual a point at such short notice, but I respectfully submit that there is a point of substance here which might be worth your consideration and a statement to the House at some other time.

§ Mr. Callaghan
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to follow the point which has been made by reminding you—I do not suppose that you will have had time to look it up— that on 24th May, 1855, there was a discussion in the House about the procedure then followed by which their Lordships used to send messages to interrupt our business here and we used to do the same. Everyone decided, by common consent, that it was really rather unfortunate to do that if business was in process and, therefore, the practice was discontinued, except for certain occasions laid down in Erskine May.
May I, therefore, follow the point of order put to you, Sir, by asking whether it would be a good thing to reconsider this procedure which can—and, on this occasion, did—occur at a moment when we really are at a crucial point in our discussions?

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
I now call the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell), on the understanding that we are still pursuing the same point of order.

§ Mr. C. Pannell
I think that it would be unfair, Mr. Speaker, to ask you to reply at once to a further supplementary point. You will obviously make a statement at some time in the future about this matter. I think, however, that you did use words, Sir, if I heard you correctly, which asked the House to consult its dignity. With very great respect, I think that those words were a trifle unfortunate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Nobody is more respectful to Mr. Speaker, or more devoted to the traditions of this House, than I. I am putting a point to Mr. Speaker, and it does not reflect on him. I submit to you, Sir, that your words were a trifle unfortunate inasmuch as the House consults its dignity best when it upholds the ancient traditions of the House.
There is, of course, the precedent going back to 1641 for this great tradition on which the ceremony giving rise to these points is based, and on which this House rests. I submit, with very great respect, on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), that the House, in moments of stress or argument, or when it thinks that it has more impor- 1278 tant matters to discuss, can assert its right to exclude the representative of the Monarch. This does not necessarily mean any disrespect to the Monarch; it means merely that the House keeps its priorities right.
I ask you. Mr. Speaker, to consider that point when you give your Ruling later on this matter. It has, I believe, concerned a great many hon. Members of the House. You will have noticed that, as a protest, the great majority of hon. Members on the Opposition back benches remained in their places. After all, back bench Members have a degree of freedom which cannot be practised by the Opposition Front Bench.

§ Mr. Chetwynd
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask how these arrangements are made between the two Houses so that we may know in future how this takes place? Is it not right that, at a time like this, Blue Streak and Black Knight should have priority over Black Rod?

§ Mr. Speaker
I think that this is a convenient moment for me to say a word. First of all, on the strict constitutional position in this matter, it is, I think, clearly desirable that I should take advice, consider it, and say something, if necessary.
As regards my own part in the matter, I imagine that what happens nowadays is that mutual consultation takes place about what is convenient for the two Houses. On behalf of this House, in the ordinary way, the Chair is asked, courteously, whether it would be convenient to this House to receive a Commission at a given hour on a given day, fitting in with mutual arrangements. For my part, I did not like the first suggestion, and the time finally arranged for this particular day represented what I had hoped would be a convenient compromise for this House. Of course, it turned out to be the most inconvenient possible moment. It is terribly difficult to estimate beforehand with any accuracy how much Blue Streak, or whatever it may be, will flash.
I hope that the House will regard me as one by nature enthusiastic for the support of the Privilege of this House against anybody else or any other place. If, this day, in what, after all, if I may say so, was not the quietest moment, I 1279 did a little, in seeking peace for the entertainment of the guest already on the Floor, go a little faster than the House meant me then to go, I apologise to the House.
May we now get on with our business? There is a great deal to do. I forget precisely where we were. One or other of the Ministers had failed to answer a question, I think.