HC Deb 11 April 1960 vol 621 cc871-6
27. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will name the firm of contractors which, in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on guided missiles, is stated to have failed to provide the degree of leadership expected and to apply the requisite amount of effort.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon)

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to his supplementary question on 21st March.

Mr. Allaun

Has this firm received any subsequent contracts? Since the Estimate for this missile alone rose from £1½ million to £40 million—and I understand that it has now gone to £50 million —are not certain private armament manufacturers enjoying a lovely racket because of Government laxity?

Mr. Rippon

The hon. Gentleman would have to give notice of his first question, because I am not in a position to say whether other contracts have been given. One must be careful about choosing figures which are comparable.

Mr. Strauss

Was not the Answer to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred that this matter was before the Public Accounts Committee and that the right hon. Gentleman wanted to wait until the Committee had considered it before commenting in the House? Is there any reason why something before the Public Accounts Committee should not be discussed in the House, since theoretically neither he nor I knows what is before the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee?

Mr. Rippon

The right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question refers to the next Question. I have been asked only to give the name of the contractor. My right hon. Friend pointed out in the course of a fairly long discussion on the earlier Question that it was not the custom to give the names of the contractors in these cases, although in this particular case it is not difficult to ascertain it.

Mr. H. Wilson

On a point of order. Since the previous Answer referred to this matter as being before the Public Accounts Committee, is it not out of order for any Minister, or any Member, to refer to anything being before the Public Accounts Committee, or any Select Committee, if that Committee has not reported to the House?

Mr. Speaker

I imagine that the Question is based on the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the items in which the Public Accounts Committee may or may not consider as it sees fit. In the present state of affairs, the Minister is not debarred from referring to the matter.

Mr. Wilson

Can we be quite clear about this? Is it not the position that the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is made to the House and it is then perfectly competent for any Member, or any Minister, to refer to it if he wishes, which one Minister recently said he could not do because the matter was before the Public Accounts Committee? Consequently, would it not be out of order, if a Minister specifically said that a matter was before the Public Accounts Committee, to refer to it?

Mr. Speaker

I am afraid that I did not appreciate that. That might be out of order as being an infringement of the privacy of the Committee's proceedings.

Mr. Shinwell

Further to that point of order. We must ask your guidance on this, Mr. Speaker. I understood that the mere fact that some matter was being considered by the Public Accounts Committee or any Select Committee of the House was no reason why Members should be prohibited from asking questions, because a matter might be before a Select Committee for many months or even years. If a matter is before the Select Committee, does that mean that we are prohibited from asking Questions?

The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys)

I do not have my earlier Answer before me, but my recollection is that I said that I could not answer the Question, not because I understood that it was out of order, but because the House would not wish me to anticipate evidence which was to be given to the Committee by my Accounting Officer.

Mr. Speaker

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I could not remember accurately or inaccurately what he said without his aid. Proceedings being before a Committee before it reports, being a matter not publicly revealed, an hon. Member may be out of order in referring to those proceedings and to what may not be publicly known. There is an item in the Question referring to those proceedings, but the fact that the Comptroller and Auditor General has reported to the House on the matter enables the House, if it thinks fit, to refer to the subject matter of his Report at any time, although, no doubt, the House would find it convenient in ordinary circumstances to follow the ordinary practice, rather on the lines which the Minister has indicated. I hope that we can now get on.

28. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the nature of his reply to the Comptroller and Auditor General's request for the reasons for the substantial increases in estimated costs of development and production of missile Type B.

Mr. Rippon

I suggest it would be better not to anticipate now the proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr. Allaun

Will the Minister give an assurance that, at the same time, he will make a statement to this House? Is not that the least he can do in view of the fact that on this missile the estimate rose from £2½ million to £27 million, according to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and I now understand it is £50 million, and also in view of the fact that the Minister himself said in this House that there had been absurdly incorrect estimates?

Mr. Rippon

Once again, the hon. Member must be careful with these figures in order to be sure that he is comparing like with like. The Public Accounts Committee is the chosen instru- ment of the House for examining these matters and can examine witnesses and report to the House if it thinks fit.

Mr. Strauss

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that in saying that he is unprepared to give an answer to the question referring to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General he is preventing the House from having information which it desires, maybe for many months, on the grounds that the Public Accounts Committee is to consider it? That is a quite impossible position in which to place the House. Why cannot he give a reply to the question now?

Mr. Callaghan

What is this tenderness that the Parliamentary Secretary is showing? Is it because private enterprise is involved that we are not allowed to have this answer? Why cannot the hon. Gentleman at least tell the House whether or not this firm is in fact getting more orders? Has he come here so unprepared that he cannot even give us an answer to that, and, if so, is he surprised that we should be suspicious that he wants to cover up his friends in private enterprise, because we do not believe that he would show the same tenderness to a nationalised industry?

Mr. Rippon

The House knows that this is one of the principal firms in the country. It may be assumed that it is receiving further orders. The difficulty, I think, is that the nature of these matters is so complex that it would be very much better for them to be dealt with by the Public Accounts Committee, which may examine witnesses and go into details, rather than to give a short and possibly necessarily misleading answer.

Mr. Strauss

That may be so, in the opinion of the Minister, but if the House, or a large section of it, wants to know in brief what the Government's excuse or reply is to the very serious criticisms put before the House by the Comptroller and Auditor General, surely the House is entitled to know shortly what that answer is? Why cannot we have that answer?

Mr. Rippon

However that may be, I think the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) seemed to believe that it was probably best that these matters should be left to the Public Accounts Committee.

Hon. Members: No.

Mr. H. Wilson

Since the hon. Gentleman has referred to me, will he now get me right? What I said was that, while I suggested it would be out of order while such an important matter was before a particular Select Committee, I further said that any matter on which the Comptroller and Auditor General had reported to the House is within the province of this House to deal with at any time without waiting for a report from the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr. Rippon

This Question asked what reply was to be given to the Comptroller and Auditor General. That will necessarily be a lengthy and detailed reply.

Mr. Shinwell

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to say on which leg he is standing? Is he basing his refusal to reply to the question on the ground that this matter will shortly be reported on by a Select Committee or by the Comptroller and Auditor General, or is it because there are complexities in this matter? Will he recall what he said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) about comparing like with like, and that he could not compare these figures? Is that the leg on which he is standing? Is he standing on one leg or two?

Mr. Rippon

I hope I am standing on two. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question referred to two matters— the question of the figures, which did not arise directly out of the Question, and the nature of the reply to the Comptroller and Auditor General's request. That reply has been given. It is a full document, and it is before the Public Accounts Committee, which will hear witnesses and in due course report to the House.

Mr. Wilson

Is it in order for an hon. Gentleman, correctly or incorrectly, to say anything about a document which is before a Select Committee which has not reported to this House?

Mr. Speaker

I think that is within the principle laid down just now.

Mr. Rankin

In view of these exchanges, Mr. Speaker, will you assure the House that none of the powers which the House previously held in this matter are being limited?

Mr. Speaker

I did not hear the material word.

Mr. Rankin

That none of the powers which the House formerly had in regard to these—Committees, on Procedure, of Public Accounts and so on—are now being limited?

Mr. Speaker

Nothing in that respect can be changed except by the House. There is no such change.

Mr. Callaghan

Would it be in order to suggest that the Chairman of the British Transport Commission might inquire into these matters?

Mr. Speaker

With respect, this is taking up time.