§ 4. Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners in Scotland were in receipt of payments from the National Assistance Board at the latest available date.
§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith)I am informed by the National Assistance Board that at 29th March, 1960, 76,200 weekly assistance grants were being paid in Scotland as supplements to retirement pensions and 11,548 as supplements to non-contributory old-age pensions. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Mr. WillisIs the right hon. Lady aware that this great pool of relative poverty is considered by most people in Scotland to be a disgrace? When will the Government do something to improve the position of these people?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThat is another question.
§ 5. Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what increase would be required in the single rate of retirement pension so that it would represent the same proportion of the average earnings of employed persons as it did when the existing pension rates were established over two years ago.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterFor men, 3s. 10d., and for women, 4s. 2d.
§ Mr. PrenticeFor how long is the gap between the standard of living of the pensioner and that of the rest of the community to be allowed to grow? Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the present standard of living has been built up very largely by the hard work and sacrifices in the past of those who have now retired? When will the Government stop making these stale excuses and raise the standard of living of the pensioner?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe hon. Member knows perfectly well that the answer to questions of that sort depends on the base dates selected. If I were to select October, 1951, the picture would be the opposite.
§ 6. Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the total cost of increasing the old-age pension sufficiently to enable pensioners to enjoy the same increase in living standards as has been enjoyed by wage earners since 1946.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI am afraid that no calculation on the lines suggested by the hon. Member is possible.
§ Mr. WillisIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that it would be a very considerable sum? When do the Government propose to implement the Prime Minister's promise that pensioners should properly share in the increasing productivity of the country?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThat does not arise out of this Question.
§ 9. Mrs. Cullenasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the cost of raising the present single retirement pension by 10s. 6d.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAbout £120 millions a year, but rather more than £200 millions a year if other benefits were increased correspondingly.
§ 10. Mrs. Cullenasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners are in receipt of National Assistance in the City of Glasgow at the latest available date.
§ 27. Mr. Hannanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners there are in the city of Glasgow; and what proportion of these are in receipt of National Assistance supplementation.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas, and it follows that it is not possible to state the percentage of pensions supplemented by national assistance. I am informed by the National Assistance Board that 24,894 weekly National Assistance grants supplementing retirement pensions and 1,989 supplementing non-contributory old-age pensions were being paid on 29th March, 1960, in the City of Glasgow and some adjoining areas served by the Board's offices in the City. Some of the grants provided for households with more than one pensioner.
§ Mrs. CullenIs that reply not sufficient evidence to prove that the retirement pension is quite inadequate? What does the Minister propose doing about; it? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer".]
§ Mr. McInnesAs the Minister is not disposed to answer that supplementary 7 question, I wonder whether she would be good enough to indicate what percentage the 24,000 represents of the whole?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithIf the hon. Member would like to put down that Question, I should be pleased to find him the information.
§ 11. Mr. Gourlayasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in Kirkcaldy were in receipt of retirement pensions, and how many were receiving supplementary allowances, at the latest available date.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas. I am informed by the National Assistance Board that at 29th March, 1960, 2,852 weekly National Assistance grants paid as supplements to retirement pensions were current in the area served by the Board's office in Kirkcaldy: it includes the Burgh of Kirkcaldy but extends beyond it. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Mr. GourlayFirst, does not the right hon. Lady consider that the numbers in receipt of supplementary allowances from the National Assistance Board merit an immediate increase in the old-age pension?
Secondly, does she agree with the statement of the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Denzil Freeth), who, in this House on 15th December, said:
… I do not believe that our industrial recovery has yet taken place to a sufficient extent to have created the necessary wealth to enable an increase in pensions to be made."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th December. 1959; Vol. 615, c. 1260.]Thirdly, is the Minister prepared to leave the old-age pensioner in a state of perpetual despair?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe hon. Member's Question asked for statistics, which have been given. The supplementary questions which he now asks deal with quite another matter.
§ Several Hon. Members rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerThere is some difficulty here. The Minister cannot be asked to comment on the observations of some 8 unofficial Member. There is some difficulty about quoting. I think that we had better get on.
§ 12. Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps he has taken this winter to ascertain the cost of living and to collect other relevant evidence in order to relate it to pensions on the one hand and National Assistance on the other hand now payable to old-age pensioners; what conclusions he has now reached based on that evidence; and what steps he now plans in order to increase the pensions and allowances.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs the hon. and learned Member is aware, I keep the levels of retirement pension under review in the light, inter alia, of changes in the cost of living. So far as National Assistance is concerned, the National Assistance Board, whose officers are in close touch with applicants for assistance throughout the country, is under a statutory duty to keep the levels of National Assistance under review. So far as the last part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's Question is concerned, I have nothing to add to what I said in the debate on 16th March.
§ Mr. HughesAs the Minister says that he keeps the situation continually under review, he must be aware that the present pensions are inadequate for the purpose intended. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter with a view to seeing that they are made adequate for the pensioners' purposes, having regard to the budget they they have to face every week?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterWe had a long debate the other day on the question of adequacy or inadequacy which I do not propose to summarise. I can say, however, that the pension is worth more today than at any time before January. 1958.
§ Mr. HoughtonCan the Minister tell the House when his review will be concluded? Is this an interminable process, or will it come to an end at some time? What we are trying to ascertain is what the Minister proposes to do, and when.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe hon. Member knows that it has been the responsibility of my predecessor, now Lord Ingleby, and myself to keep these 9 matters under review. Between us, we have served the pensioner better than any other Administration.
§ 15. Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much the retirement pension would have to be increased, at the present time, to give that pension the same increase in purchasing power that has taken place in salaries, wages, and incomes derived from dividends and capital gains, respectively.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI am afraid it is quite impossible to make the calculation which the hon. Member requests.
§ Mr. BenceThat is a great pity. Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that most hon. Members and people working in industry and commerce owe a great deal to what has been done in the past and, therefore, are in part inheritors of the past? Would not he agree that it is justifiable to do something to see that this disinherited section of the population, the old people, share in some of that inheritance?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe hon. Gentleman asks me to make a calculation which it is impossible to make, and I have told him so. I do not think it is for me to comment on the results of a calculation which I cannot make.
§ 16. Mr. Mendelsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much the rate of the present retirement pension would require to be increased to give it an increased purchasing power over that of the 1946 pension equal in proportion to the increase that has accrued over the same period in the rent, interest, and dividend category of income.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe formula suggested by the hon. Member would mean that the single retirement pension would have to be reduced by about 2s. 2d. [Laughter.]
§ Mr. MendelsonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in contrast to any calculation which he cannot make, on calculations which I and some experts in this field have made, we come to an increase of 5s. 4d.? Would not he agree that it is the particular duty of his Department to see that, beyond raising a laugh over this serious and grave 10 matter, the old-age pensioners have some approximation in sharing the prosperity which other people enjoy?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI cannot take responsibility for the way in which the hon. Member frames his Question. I have given him an answer to it.
§ 17. Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a sample weekly budget of a single retired person in receipt of the retirement pension of 50s. plus National Assistance supplementation.
§ Mrs. Hartasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance when he last carried out a survey of the weekly budgets of families in receipt of National Assistance; in which areas the survey was carried out; how large were the samples taken; and whether he will publish the results in the form of a White Paper.
§ Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will carry out a survey of the budgets of retirement pensioners in receipt of National Assistance.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe initiative in proposing changes in scale rates of National Assistance has been placed by Parliament with the National Assistance Board. It has never been the Board's practice to publish detailed household budgets laying down the way in which the payments it makes can or should be spent; nor in view of the variety of personal circumstances would any useful purpose be served by it doing so. The Board does, of course, keep in close and continuous touch with the needs and circumstances of the people for whom it cares; and the hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) may be interested to know that the Board's officers pay some 6 million visits a year to the homes of the people they help.
§ Mr. WoodburnWould the Minister place in some part of this building samples of the diets which it is possible to obtain from this income, because I am quite sure that hon. Members would be shocked to see how little is available for a person to live on?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterFor the reason I gave in my main Answer, which I think the right hon. Gentleman will fully 11 appreciate, it is impossible to lay down a general proposition of this sort regardless of circumstances and the part of the country in which the people live. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food publishes a very helpful and deeply analysed food survey which deals specially with the pensioner group.
§ Mrs. HartIs the Minister aware that in the National Food Survey, to which he has referred, figures are given only of the average consumpton of food by old-age pensioners; that this average is shown to be the lowest amount spent by any category of the population; and that it reveals that there must be a large number of people who are on an inadequate diet? In view of this, will not the Minister initiate inquiries so that we may know the results and whether or not he is justified in his refusal to increase pensions and allowances?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIf the hon. Lady would study the National Food Survey, she would see that it is based on a close and detailed analysis which it would be quite wrong to complicate or to add to.
§ Mr. MillanIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reluctance to take any independent action in this matter will be widely interpreted as an admission of the complete inadequacy of the present level of retirement pensions?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs the hon. Gentleman will see, in all three of these Questions the determinant is the scale of National Assistance and not National Insurance benefits.
§ Mrs. HartIs the Minister aware that in the National Food Survey there are published the average budgets of a sample of 720,000 old-age pensioners? In answering an earlier Question today, the right hon. Gentleman has already said that there are over one-tenth of that number in Scotland alone in receipt of National Assistance. Does not that show the utter inadequacy of the National Food Survey to reveal the position?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI cannot relate the fact that a certain number of retirement pensioners draw supplementary pensions to any indication whatever that the National Food Survey is other than accurate and reliable.
§ 18. Miss Herbisonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in receipt of retirement pension in the area covered by the National Assistance Board office in Motherwell are having their pension supplemented by National Assistance; and what percentage this represents of all retirement pensioners in that area.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas and it follows that it is not possible to state the percentage of pensions supplemented by National Assistance. I am, however, informed by the National Assistance Board that at 29th March, 1960, 2,091 weekly National Assistance grants were being paid to retirement pensioners in the area served by the Board's Motherwell office. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Miss HerbisonWhen the Minister was studying the answers to these Questions, was she not filled with alarm and despair that so many of our old people are on the very verge of poverty? What does she intend to do about it? Should not she make a strong case to the Government for an immediate increase in pensions and, if they do not give an immediate increase, should not she resign as a protest? Surely, as a woman, she must realise the heartbreak which these old people are suffering?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe hon. Lady and her colleagues forget that one reason why there are more applicants receiving supplementary pensions is that the rates are far higher under this Government than under their Government.
§ Miss HerbisonIs the right hon. Lady aware that so many old people are receiving supplementary pensions because her Government refuse to raise the basic pension?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe basic pension has been raised three times by this Government, in striking contrast to the record of the Government of the party opposite.
§ 19. Miss Herbisonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in receipt of retirement pension in the area covered by the 13 National Assistance Board office in Motherwell have received a grant for personal clothing or household goods during the past year.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am informed by the National Assistance Board that the information available about grants of National Assistance to meet an exceptional need, which are mainly grants for clothing, does not distinguish retirement pensioners from the other recipients of assistance to whom they are made.
§ Miss HerbisonWould it not have been possible to give the number of grants generally given and, if these figures were given, again would it not prove not only that retirement pensioners but the chronic sick and the long-term unemployed—such as we have in Scotland—have to have recourse very often to the National Assistance Board because the scales of payment are so inadequate—and may we know what the right hon. Lady is whispering?
§ Hon. Members: Answer.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithIf the hon. Lady wants details of grants generally and will be obliging enough to put down a Question, I will provide her with the Answer.
§ Mr. T. BrownIs the right hon. Lady aware that a large number of people who apply to the National Assistance Board for clothing or household goods are being referred to the W.V.S., which is doing magnificent work, but that I do not think the Board is doing what is right in placing an intolerable burden on a voluntary organisation? Has not the Board some responsibility to meet the requirements of these old people who need clothing and household goods?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am sure the hon. Member would not wish it to be thought that he does not feel that the Board is honouring its duties in this matter. I am sure that the Board considers sympathetically all applications for the additional and exceptional grants which come before it. If the hon. Member has any particular cases in mind where he feels that the need has not been met under the Regulations, I shall be very happy, to look into them.
§ 20. Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people in the city and county of Aberdeen, respectively, are now in receipt of retirement pensions; and how many are in receipt of supplementary allowances.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas. I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the city of Aberdeen is served by two offices, one of which also serves most of the county of Aberdeen and a part of Kincardineshire, the rest of the county of Aberdeen being served by an office at Peterhead. It is not therefore possible to give the numbers of National Assistance supplements to retirement pensions as asked for. The number at 29th March, 1960, for the whole of the area served by the three offices was 3,851. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Mr. HughesAs to the first part of the Answer, does not the fact that these figures are not available show that the statement by the Minister that he keeps the situation under constant review is not accurate? Why are the figures not forthcoming? Might not the fact that the later figures are so large prove that the pensions are inadequate? Will the Minister take steps to rectify this deplorable state of affairs?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithIf the hon. and learned Member had listened to my reply, I think he would appreciate that the geography of the constituency does not necessarily coincide with the area served by the offices. That is our difficulty. We have fully accurate national and regional records, but it is not possible to give the exact figures for hon. Members' constituencies.
§ Mr. HoughtonIs there any real difficulty about this? It is surely of social and national importance that we should see the relationship between National Assistance payments and the number of retirement pensioners in particular areas? Could the right hon. Lady take steps to produce something along the lines for which we ask in these various Questions?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am sure that the hon. Member, with his vast experience of pensions, will appreciate that it is both more efficient and more economical that pensions should be, as he knows, paid centrally from Newcastle whereas the National Assistance Board supplements are dealt with locally.
§ Mr. HughesIn view of the unsatisfactory Answer to this Question and the Answer to my Question No. 12 earlier today, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment, especially in view of the inadequate debate we had recently on pensions.
§ 21. Mr. George Craddockasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the total number of persons in Bradford at present in receipt of retirement pensions; and what is the number receiving such pensions supplemented by National Assistance.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas. I am, however, informed by the National Assistance Board that on 29th March, 1960, 6,959 weekly National Assistance grants were being paid to retirement pensioners in the area served by the Board's offices in Bradford. This area comprises practically the whole of the city and some small adjoining areas. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Mr. CraddockDoes the right hon. Lady not think it astonishing that we cannot have these small figures for places up and down the country? Does it not prove that a large number of people are receiving National Assistance and that they should have the substantial increase which is necessary on their basic pension?
§ 22. Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance his estimate of the number of persons who, for reasons of sickness, unemployment, or age, are unable to earn, and who are living without any income supplementation on the £2 10s. single, or £4 married, insurance benefit or retirement pension.
§ 25. Dr. Mabonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is his estimate of the number of persons 16 whose total income is such as would enable them to qualify for National Assistance supplementation, but who have not made application for such National Assistance.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI have no figures on which to base such estimates, but I have no reason to think that the numbers are large.
§ Mr. WoodburnWhile they may not be large, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that perhaps the greatest hardship exists among those people who, perhaps foolishly, are too proud to ask for assistance? Is there any way he can think of by which they can be assisted, because there is great hardship among them?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs the right hon. Member knows, the National Assistance Board and my Department have made very considerable efforts to meet any such reluctance as may remain. The change in the name on the pension books is one. I shall be glad of his help and the help of all hon. Members in eliminating any such feeling which, as he says, is all the more tragic for being unnecessary.
§ Dr. MabonIs the right hon. Gentle-man aware that his opinion is not shared by many concerned with social service— doctors, ministers of religion, and so on? Will he arrange to take some sampling process on the basis of the techniques used in the National Food Survey to make more precise estimates of those who come into this unfortunate category?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI think we should be far better engaged, if we discover such people, in persuading them to take themselves out of the category.
§ 23. Mr. Hoyasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much, in terms of 1946 prices, the single retirement pension exceeded or fell below a purchasing power of £1 6s. in each of the years from 1952 to 1957.
§ 34. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much, and for how long, the single retirement pension exceeded a value of £1 6s., expressed in 1946 prices, during the period from October, 1952, to October, 1957.
§ 36. Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in which years, as at October, from 1952 to 1957, the value of the single retirement pension exceeded £1 6s., in terms of 1946 prices; and by how much.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs the Answer consists of a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. In reply to the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson), the pension was worth more than 26s. in terms of 1946 prices from May, 1955, to February, 1956, by amounts varying up to about 1s. 4d.
§ Mr. HoyWould not a comparison with the period mentioned in my Question and the Answer the Minister gave about a week or ten days ago for the same class of pensioner for the years 1958–59, show that this class of pensioner has not been doing so well out of this "never had it so good" period? Would the Minister be prepared to take a little action to give some increased benefits to this class of pensioner?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs the hon. Member has pointed out, the figures show a very appreciable increase in respect of the past two years.
§ Mr. LawsonDo not the figures show that, as the Minister said, only for a few months during those years the maximum by which the figures exceeded 26s. was 1s. 4d.? Is 1s. 4d. much to brag about as to what has been done in those years?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs the hon. Member will be aware, the interest of the pensioner is not the past rate but the present one—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and it is that which, for some reason or other, he and his hon. Friends excluded from this Question.
§ Mr. RossIs the Minister aware that the pensioners are certainly interested in the figures but in relation to the present position they are completely disgusted, not only by the figures but by the obduracy of the Minister in refusing to face the fact that an increase is necessary and refusing to give it to them?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI think the hon. Member is wholly wrong, not only in his assessment of the position, but also, 18 as he was not long ago, in his assessment of public opinion.
§ Following are the figures:
| Month | Value at October, 1946 prices | Amount in excess of or below, 26s. at October, 1946 prices | |||
| s. | d. | s. | d. | ||
| October, 1952 | … | 23 | 7 | —2 | 5 |
| October, 1953 | … | 23 | 2 | —2 | 10 |
| October, 1954 | … | 22 | 7 | —3 | 5 |
| October, 1955 | … | 26 | 5 | + | 5 |
| October, 1956 | … | 25 | 5 | — | 7 |
| October, 1957 | … | 24 | 4 | —1 | 8 |
§ 26. Dr. Mabonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much the present single retirement pension of £2 10s. would require to be increased to give it the same increase in purchasing power over the 1946 pension of £1 6s., as has been attained by the rise in income from dividends over the same period.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAbout 5s. 3d., if the calculation is based on a comparison of the total dividends on ordinary and preference shares, other than those for companies now nationalised, for 1946 and 1959.
§ Dr. MabonIn view of that Answer, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he has honoured his election promise made in 1959? Can he now tell us by his demeanour whether the Chancellor means to raise pensions this afternoon?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI think that when the hon. Member studies his Question and my Answer he will see that it is not very useful to compare an individual scale of pension with a total amount of other payments made to an unspecified but increasing number of people.
§ 29. Miss Baconasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that women retirement pensioners, working part-time in domestic employment and in factories, find it impossible to satisfy the 12-hour rule and take full advantage of the increase in the earnings allowed; and if he will amend the law to put right this anomaly.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI would refer the hon. Lady to what I said on this subject during the debate on the Earnings Regulations on 15th February.
§ Miss BaconIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is no use making speeches unless something is done about this matter? Is he aware that a great deal of confusion and no uniform practice exists because two women working next to each other can be treated differently for retirement purposes? Is he also aware that very few women in the country can take full advantage of the £3 10s. rule and keep within the 12-hour rule?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs I said in the speech to which I referred the hon. Lady, this is an important and serious point. The point I made was that we should require, as the Advisory Committee suggested, to see how this rule was affected by the earnings limits. These came into operation only on 21st March and we must have a little time to follow them out.
§ Miss BaconIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although the rate has only just come into operation, some women have had their pension books withdrawn? I have sent one to him as an example.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe hon. Lady will appreciate that this problem derives not from any specific action of this Government but from the construction placed by the ultimate statutory authorities on the National Insurance Act, 1946.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Pavitt.
§ Mr. HoughtonIs the Minister aware—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I called the next Question, by misfortune, before I saw the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) rise.
§ 32. Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much in terms of 1946 prices the present value of the single retirement pension exceeds the value of the same pension in May 1955, taking into account the withdrawal of the cheap tobacco concession.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIn terms of 1946 prices, the single retirement pension 20 in payment today exceeds the value of that in payment in May 1955 by 2s. 4d. Allowing for the value of tobacco tokens in the case of those pensioners who smoked, the excess is 9d.
§ Mr. PavittIs the Minister aware that 400 old people wished to see him and the Parliamentary Secretary here on the 21st March to discuss the inadequacy of the present pension and that, with the help of six of my colleagues on this side of the House, I was able to cater for them in Committee Rooms 14 and 10, the two largest Committee Rooms in the House, in order to try to give some answer to their present difficulties? Will the Minister, together with the Parliamentary Secretary, meet these 400 of my constituents if they again come to the House?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI cannot make individual appointments at Question Time across the Floor of the House.
§ 33. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proportion of the cost of the contributory old-age pension in 1938 was met by the Exchequer; what proportion of the retirement pension was so met in 1958; and what is the estimated Exchequer proportion of the retirement pension in 1962.
§ 35. Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proportion of the contributory old-age pension in 1938 was paid for by means of contributions; what proportion of the retirement pension was so paid in 1958; and what is the estimated proportion that will be so paid for in 1962.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIt is not possible to isolate Exchequer payments or contributions for particular benefits under the Contributory Pensions and National Insurance schemes, since all receipts are paid into a single account from which the cost of all benefits is met. In the year ending 31st March, 1938, Exchequer payments and contribution receipts were, respectively, about 31 per cent. and 69 per cent. of the expenditure from the Pensions Accounts under the Contributory Pensions Acts, and 14 per cent. and 79 per cent. of the expenditure of the National Insurance Fund in the year ended 31st March, 1958. In 1961–62 it is estimated that the proportions will be about 17 per cent. and 79 per cent.
§ Mr. LawsonIt is rather difficult to understand what those percentages mean. May I take it that there has been a process, which is likely to continue, of shifting the cost of paying for the old-age pension and retirement pension from the Exchequer to the shoulders of the contributor?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI sympathise with the hon. Member in his difficulty, but he asked for percentages and I had to give them. In terms of cash the figures are £14.6 million in 1938, just over £100 million in 1958 and about £170 million in 1962, which I think is the reverse of what the hon. Member was forecasting.
§ Mr. LawsonI asked for percentages deliberately, but in his reply the Minister mixed the percentage from the contributor with the percentage from the Exchequer. I asked for one of them. Could I have separately the percentage which has been paid by the Exchequer and not by the contributor?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI have given the hon. Member both percentages. I think he might study them.
§ 37. Mr. Smallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the amount by which the retirement pension would require to be raised to produce a basic pension equal to one third of the average adult male earnings.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterFor a married man, by 10s. 3d.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I cannot imagine why hon. Members interpret the process of being quiet in such strange terms today. Would the Minister be good enough to repeat his answer?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI will try again. The answer is, for a married man, by 10s. 3d.
§ Mr. SmallDoes the Minister realise that the comparability of wage rates has been basic recently with reference to the railways? Does he not agree that a modest 10s. 3d. is not an unreasonable target? Will he support such a claim?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThat raises, again, a matter with which I dealt at some length on 16th March. I do not propose to add anything to it today.
§ 38. Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in the city of Dundee are in receipt of retirement pensions; and how many were receiving National Assistance grants at the last available date.
Miss Horns by-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas. I am informed by the National Assistance Board that on 29th March, 1960, 3,467 weekly National Assistance grants were being paid to retirement pensioners in the area, extending beyond the city, which is served by the Board's offices in Dundee. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Mr. ThomsonIs the Minister aware that that is a disgracefully high figure in a community of under 200,000 people? Does it not show that amidst the general prosperity of the country very real poverty is being suffered by the old-age pensioners? What do the Government intend to do about it?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithIt is certainly not an abnormally high percentage.
§ 39. Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what increase would be required in the retirement pension for a single person to make the percentage increase since it was last raised equal the percentage increase in income from rents during the same period.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAbout 2s. 6d., based on a comparison between the total income from rents during 1958 and during 1959—the latest figures available.
§ Mr. ThomsonWhile thanking the Minister for that answer, may I ask whether it does not show clearly that this is a Government which looks after the landlords and neglects the old-age pensioners?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe fallacy of that argument is borne out by the fact that the rent figures include a very substantial amount in respect of local authority rents.
§ 42. Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what savings would be effected in National Assistance by the raising of the retirement pension to a level in excess of the National Assistance scale of allowances.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe extent of the saving would depend on the extent of the increase in retirement pension rates: for each 1s. a week it would come to roughly £3 million a year on the assumption that no change in National Assistance scales was made.
§ Mr. DempseyDoes the Minister realise that that is quite a saving? Would he consider looking again at that policy, because, in addition to effecting that saving, he would be getting rid of one of the worst means tests which besets one of the most deserving sections of the community.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe difficulty is that it would be a saving based on the fact that the whole transaction would give nothing at all to the poorest sections of the community.
§ 43. Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the value of the single retirement pension as at 1st February, 1958, in terms of 1946 prices.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIt was 30s. 2d. on the basis of the Retail Prices Index and the Cost of Living Index which preceded it.
§ Mr. DempseyIs the Minister aware that every time we receive the figures the value of the pension in relation to 1946 prices has deteriorated? Is he aware that according to recent information it has deteriorated even further in 1960? Does he not think that it is time the old-age pensioner was given a better deal and a living pension?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI do not know what figures the hon. Member has seen, because the Retail Prices Index has been extremely stable.
§ Mr. LiptonIs the Minister aware that most of the Questions which he and his right hon. Friend have tried somewhat ineffectively to answer today would be quite unnecessary if, before the day is out, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that he would give another 10s. a week to old-age pensioners?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI can imagine no contingency which would deter the hon. Member from putting down Questions.
§ 44. Mr. Manuelasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners in the county of Ayr are receiving National Assistance.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am informed by the National Assistance Board that on 29th March, 1960, 5,781 weekly National Assistance grants supplementing retirement pensions and 690 supplementing non-contributory old age pensions were being paid in the area covered by the Board's offices in the county of Ayr, which serve the whole of the county and parts of Renfrewshire and Buteshire. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Mr. ManuelDoes not the right hon. Member think that this is a shocking figure for the County of Ayr—the county in which Burns set down his earliest yearnings for a better mankind and a better brotherhood for the world? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that over 6,000 people are unemployed in Ayrshire and that therefore the resilience of the economy to help our old people is much weakened? Is not this proof positive that the Government ought to be taking steps to help these poverty-stricken old-age pensioners out of the very sad conditions in which they are living today?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am sure the hon. Member agrees that under this Government both the old-age pensions and the allowances have been enhanced—
§ Mr. ManuelNo.
§ Miss Hornsby-Smith— and further—
§ Mr. ManuelRead Burns.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. There may be some hon. Member who wants to listen to the answer.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe hon. Member is as well aware as we are that when there has been an increase in pensions, the first claim has been that it should not be offset through those on National Assistance losing all of it.
§ Sir T. MooreCan my right hon. Friend estimate how many old-age pensioners would be receiving National Assistance today if old-age pensions had not been increased three times by the present Government and the cost of living steadied under the present Government instead of rocketing upwards as it did under the previous Labour Government?
§ 47. Dr. A. Thompsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the number of retirement pensioners in the Dunfermline area; what proportion is in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; and what is the average amount of such supplementation.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithStatistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas, and it follows that it is not possible to state the percentage of pensions supplemented by National Assistance. I am informed by the National Assistance Board that information about the average amount of National Assistance grants is not available for particular areas, but that on 29th March, 1960, 1,770 weekly grants were being paid to retirement pensioners in the area served by the Board's office in Dunfermline. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.
§ Dr. ThompsonCan the Minister give me an undertaking that these statistics will be collected in future for individual areas in order to meet, in the coming months, the persistent, unremitting and single-minded concern of my hon. Friends and I for the plight of old-age pensioners, in contrast to the silence and indifference which, according to today's Order Paper, is displayed on the benches opposite?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithIf the hon. Member considers the fact that pensions are paid through highly complicated machinery which is centred at Newcastle, he will realise that it would be a waste of public money to set up organisations to collect figures on the different geographical areas combined in indvidual constituencies. I cannot give the undertaking for which he asks.
§ Mr. EdenBy asking such questions as this and trying to seek such information, will not my hon. Friend agree that 26 hon. Gentlemen opposite do the greatest disservice to those who draw National Assistance? After all, is it not the fact that by means of National Assistance we can best be assured that the money is paid to those who are genuinely in need of it?
§ Mr. HoughtonIs there really any difficulty about supplying this information? The proportion of National Assistance payments to retirement pensioners in particular localities may be of great importance. It may show manifestations of social change or maldistribution of national prosperity, from which useful conclusions can be drawn. Is the hon. Lady aware that it would not require regional organisation? All that it requires is information, and the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance should be able to supply information.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI have a great respect for the hon. Member's knowledge of pensions organisation, but I think that on reflection he will appreciate that the whole national set-up for dealing with pensions, if it were broken up into the peculiar ramifications of the areas of individual constituencies, would place a great burden and a great cost on the public purse.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsWill the right hon. Lady ask the approximately 250 local advisory committees of the Ministry of National Insurance whether they have these figures available? If they have, they should make them available to her so that she can tell the House.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am sure that the right hon. Gentleman realises that, if they were available, it would be through our organisation, but they are not available for the areas which have been dealt with in the Questions put this afternoon.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsLocal advisory committees are perfectly entitled to ask for the figures. I should be very surprised if they do not ask for them and do not have them available.
Mrs. SlaterIs the right hon. Lady aware that these figures are of extreme importance for the people within the various areas? The only reason for asking these Questions is to try to find out from the Government just how much 27 they value the needs of the old-age pensioners? Is the right hon. Lady further aware that her hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Eden) was very anxious to receive the same figures when we were discussing the Pensions Bill in Committee?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI am sure that the hon. Lady is aware that the advisory committee areas do not coincide with the constituency areas. Further, I am sure that it was in the interests of efficiency that the former Labour Government introduced the centralisation of pensions records at Newcastle.
§ Miss HerbisonOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Owing to the sorry and lamentable picture—[Interruption.] I repeat, owing to the sorry and lamentable picture—
§ Mr. SpeakerI hope the hon. Lady will state what her point of order is.
§ Miss HerbisonWith due deference, to you, Mr. Speaker, I am coming to my point of order. It is that because of this picture of the plight of the old people that has been painted by the Answers to all these Questions today, and the cold callousness—[Interruption.] —where these people are concerned, and, again, I say—[Interruption.]—the cold callousness of the Ministers—
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Lady will have heard me on more than one occasion ask that hon. Members desirous of giving notice to raise matters on the Adjournment should use the usual formula, otherwise we get this sort of din and waste of time.
§ Miss HerbisonThen, Mr. Speaker, for the reasons I have stated, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.