HC Deb 25 November 1959 vol 614 cc360-2
36. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is satisfied that his present statutory powers of imposing discipline on officers and other ranks in the Army are adequate; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Soames

Yes, Sir. I would refer the right hon. Member to the debate on the Army Act which took place on 12th November.

Mr. Shinwell

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Can he say whether, since his power to impose discipline is derived from the Army Act, he requires any additional assistance in order to impose discipline on officers and other ranks in the Army, and whether the declaration made by the Minister of Defence recently, that he must vet any lectures delivered by Army officers, was in accordance with the Army Act?

Mr. Soames

That has nothing whatever to do with discipline. Where discipline is concerned, it is incumbent upon an officer, if he proposes to make a public statement of the character which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, to submit that public statement to the War Office. I am responsible for passing it or not passing it. Where the matter touches inter-Departmental arrangements, naturally, if a speech which an officer wished to make touched, for instance, on colonial affairs or foreign affairs, I—it would be my responsibility, not the responsibility of the officer—would check, from the point of view of purely administrative and Governmental arrangements, with the Colonial Office or the Foreign Office on whether the content of the speech was suitable. Similarly, now, when it comes to making speeches on broad defence policy, I shall refer them to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence who is, of course, responsible for the overall defence policy of the Government.

Mr. Shinwell

While that may he so, if a high-ranking officer makes a speech on a matter of defence which is of a global character, no doubt the Minister of Defence might wish to butt in, but where the subject of discipline arises, namely, in connection with an act by a high-ranking officer, are we to understand that the exclusive right for imposing discipline is vested in the right hon. Gentleman and in no other Member of the Government?

Mr. Soames

Yes, Sir, that is so.

Captain Pilkington

Has my right hon. Friend considered applying to the Army the new disciplinary code as laid down by the Labour Party?

Mr. Mellish

In view of the fact that General Cowley recently made a statement which, we understand, was vetted by the right hon. Gentleman's Department and approved, yet the Minister of Defence deprecated that, may we have some indication of the co-ordination between the Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State for War?

Mr. Soames

I went into this in more detail in the debate on the Army Act a week or so ago, when I explained my reasons for passing the speech which was submitted to me by General Cowley.

Mr. Bellenger

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are you aware that the Secretary of State is not informing the House correctly about what happened on the Army Estimates debate the other day? Your Deputy in the Chair did—

Mr. Speaker

It was not on the Army Estimates. The debate referred to, I suppose, is the debate on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.

Mr. Mellish

Further to that point of order. With very great respect—

Mr. Speaker

I do not think that the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) has finished. I was trying to get back to the substance of it.

Mr. Bellenger

I was merely trying to call your attention, Sir, to the fact that it was not correct to say that we were permitted to debate it.

Mr. Mellish

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In effect, the Secretary of State has said that he explained the details of this in question and answer in a certain debate recently. In fact, that is not so, and we are very much concerned about the fact that the right hon. Gentleman approved a speech which was later disapproved by the Minister of Defence. What I think we have a right to ask, and what my right hon. Friend was trying to ask, is whether or not there is any co-ordination, and who, at the end of the day, decides who is to say what?

Mr. Speaker

There is some difficulty about asking that in relation to this Question. It does not arise out of it.