§ 47. Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister what proportion of strontium 90, relative to other radioactive materials, is present in fall-out from nuclear weapons, in other man-made radiation, and in natural radiation, respectively.
§ The Prime MinisterAt the time that fall-out is deposited in the United Kingdom as the result of nuclear explosions, about 1 per cent. of the deposited radioactivity is due to strontium 90. The reason why it has caused concern is because unlike most of the other radioactive products it finds its way through the diet into human bone and is relatively long-lived.
Strontium 90 is an artificial radioisotope and therefore does not contribute to natural radiation. It is, however, used to a very small extent both industrially and for medical purposes under the most stringent safeguards, and thus makes a minute contribution to the radiation dose received by the population from manmade sources other than nuclear tests.
§ Mr. WarbeyDoes not this information make nonsense of the mystical figures of 100, 22 and between 1 and 5 that the Prime Minister has been waving about in the last week or two? Will he now agree that there is need for special concern about the increase in the deposition of strontium 90 and that there is no room whatever for complacency?
§ The Prime MinisterThe figures stand absolutely unchallenged as regards both the genetic and the somatic effects. There is a Question on the Order Paper concerning the latter, which will be answered separately.
§ Mr. GaitskellIs the Prime Minister saying that these figures apply also concerning strontium 90? I understood him 1422 to say that there was very little strontium 90 from natural radiation, which according to these figures is 100 times, or at least 50 times, what is deposited by radioactive fall-out.
§ The Prime MinisterYes. But those figures take into account the strontium deposit and they stand proportionately as regards both the genetic and the somatic effects.
§ Mr. GaitskellIs the Prime Minister saying that those proportions apply to strontium 90 on its own?
§ The Prime MinisterStrontium 90 is not a thing on its own. It is something that produces radioactivity. In making these estimates, the amount of radioactivity produced by strontium 90 is taken into account in the calculation.
§ Captain PilkingtonEven if the amount of strontium 90 reached the level at which, according to the Medical Research Council, it would require immediate attention, would that be the same thing as a danger level or would it be still far below the danger level?
§ The Prime MinisterThat comes on the next Question on the Order Paper. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will wait for it.
§ 48. Mr. Fernyhoughasked the Prime Minister his estimate of the time that will elapse, assuming that strontium 90 continues in the future to be injected in the atmosphere at the higher rate observed in 1958, before the concentration of this substance reaches the level at which it would require immediate attention.
§ The Prime MinisterThe time that would elapse on the assumption made by the hon. Member before the concentration of strontium 90 in human bone reached the level at which it would require immediate attention would depend on many factors, some of which cannot be forecast at this stage.
Forecasts of future trends on various assumptions were made by the United Nations Scientific Committee. I would add that no nuclear tests, so far as I know, have taken place since the autumn of 1958 and we are actively engaged in negotiating for their complete suspension.
§ Mr. FernyhoughWould not the Prime Minister agree that he and his 1423 Government are very inconsistent on the question of pollution of the atmosphere? Is he not aware that it was his Government which introduced the Clean Air Act, which makes it an offence for people to pollute the atmosphere with black smoke? Since strontium 90 is a lot more dangerous than black smoke, does not the Prime Minister consider it desirable to bring in an Amendment to the Clean Air Act so that we can prosecute those who pollute the atmosphere not only with black smoke, but with strontium 90?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Gentleman has made his point, but I do not think what drops from the atmosphere from a comparatively small height has any relation to the problem of this particular form of radiation which, added to natural and man-made radiation, makes a very small addition to the dangers to which we are subjected. At the same time, I have tried, I hope without complacency but with objectivity, to give the House the best possible scientific information I can and at the same time to emphasise how anxious I am that we should reach international arrangements to bring these tests to an end.
§ Mr. GaitskellI will try once more to get the position of strontium 90 cleared up. Is it not the case that strontium 90 comes, in the main, from nuclear explosions and not from natural radiation?
§ The Prime MinisterOf course. It is about 1 per cent. of the radiation which is dropped from nuclear explosions. Most of the radiation consists of strontium 89 and all kinds of other radioactive matter. The advantage of most of them is that they disappear rather quickly. Strontium 90's only importance is that out of the total amount of radiation which results from nuclear tests this particular one, which is only about 1 per cent, of the whole, has a longer life.
§ Mr. GaitskellThe Prime Minister has answered questions about the effects of strontium 90, and I appreciate that. I was asking about the causes of it. Is it not the case that the major cause here is, in fact, nuclear explosion and not either natural radiation or radiation caused in other ways?
§ The Prime MinisterPerhaps I went too quickly for the right hon. Gentleman 1424 to listen to what I am trying to say. Strontium 90 is an artificial product. I must read again what I said. It is an artificial radio-isotope which does not therefore spring from or contribute to natural radiation. It is made for medical purposes and it is made for industrial purposes, and it is only to be considered from the total amount that it adds to radiation as a whole and the character and length of its life.
§ Mr. HastingsAm I right in saying that the amount of strontium 90 falling in different parts of the world varies greatly and that the amount of strontium 90 which has fallen and been absorbed by the bones of animals and men varies and is in the case of sheep as much as seventeen times greater in the Welsh mountains than in the plains nearby?
§ The Prime MinisterI must be careful. I do my best to answer what I can in supplementary questions, but I do not think I could accept the hon. Gentleman's figures without notice. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question I will try to answer it accurately. He is quite right in saying that there is considerable variation in different parts of the world in the effect of fall-out.
§ 49. Mr. P. Noel-Bakerthe Prime Minister whether he will now lay a Command Paper before the House giving the total fission yield from nuclear tests by Great Britain, the United States of America, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, respectively, in each of the years 1945 to 1958, the latest information about the rate at which the fall-out of fission products reaches the surface of the earth and about the geographical distribution of this fall-out, the latest estimates of the probable genetic damage likely to be caused by this fall-out, and the probable number of cases of leukaemia and cancer of the bone likely to be caused by the release of strontium 90 by such tests.
§ The Prime MinisterI made a full statement about many of these matters on 28th April, and have since answered a number of Questions arising from it. Information on certain other points was published by the Ministry of Defence on 5th May. Other aspects are covered by the Reports issued by the Medical Research Council and the United Nations Scientific Committee. I do not see any 1425 advantage in trying at this stage to publish in a single document information and estimates, some of them necessarily very tentative, on such varying aspects of so wide a problem.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerWould it not be an advantage to hon. Members to have in a readily usable form the information about the total yield of fission products due to tests, which was recently released in the statement made the other day by Dr. Dunning, chief biologist to the United States Atomic Energy Commission, of the casualties due to tests; and the new data about underground and outer space tests, of which the Minister of State spoke in the debate on 27th April? How can hon. Members form a proper judgment on this matter unless they have this new and vitally important information?
§ The Prime MinisterI have tried to give information on specific points as it is asked for, and at the request of the House I published in HANSARD a very long Answer, trying to co-ordinate the general position as we saw it then. I do not think there is advantage now in trying to produce a White Paper to cover such a very varied field with so many aspects to it. It would take a very long time to do it and to make it accurate. I will continue, I hope to my best ability, to answer the specific points that hon. Members may raise.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerIs it not clear from the Prime Minister's answer that it is extremely difficult to get the information required in answer to Parliamentary Questions? In view of the vital issues now at stake in the conference at Geneva, ought we not to have another White Paper co-ordinating this information?
§ The Prime MinisterOf course, I will consider that, but it would take several months to compile. It is a very big job to do this properly, if it is to cover all the points which the right hon. Gentleman wants it to cover. Separate points I will try to deal with in Questions, but I will consider issuing a statement rather on the lines of the seven columns of HANSARD which I filled some weeks ago.
§ Mr. GaitskellIn view of the fact that the danger from nuclear tests affects us all, regardless of who sets them off, is it not desirable that we should have a picture of what happens in the world as 1426 a whole rather than in our own country only?
§ The Prime MinisterOh, yes, but these figures and answers apply to the world as a whole. The important fact for the world to remember is that nobody has set off a test since October, and that if we succeed in our endeavours nobody, I hope, ever will.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerSince the issue of outer space tests and underground tests is still unsettled, is it not desirable to have the new data of which the Minister of State spoke? It has been given to the Russians; it cannot, therefore, be secret; ought it not be made available to hon. Members?
§ The Prime MinisterIf the right hon. Gentleman will put down Questions asking for specific data I will do my best to answer them. I do not think that any hon. Member can complain. I have taken quite a lot of trouble in trying to answer these questions in great detail.