B.B.C. SCOTTISH ORCHESTRA

HC Deb 06 May 1959 vol 605 cc506-28

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bryan.]

9.16 p.m.

Mr. William Hannan (Glasgow, Maryhill)

The subject of tonight's Adjournment debate is of extreme importance to music lovers throughout Scotland. It is not only for the musicians, for their union, or merely for the composers or teachers for whom I shall try to speak. In addition to those very important people, there are the ordinary persons in Scotland who are keen listeners to good music.

I want, first, to assure the Postmaster-General that behind this Adjournment debate there is absolutely no suggestion of party politics. Neither is there an intention to attack the B.B.C., which has established high standards of good taste in comparison with other broadcasting interests, into the merits of which I do not intend to enter tonight. I am sincerely seeking answers to questions which are perturbing the listening public—the musicians, the educationists, and those who have at heart the best interests of culture in its widest sense as it affects Scotland.

Scotland is a musical nation. In passing, I would merely draw the attention of the House to the fact that only two weeks ago in a national B.B.C. contest called "Let the People Sing", three Scotitish choirs, two from the same organisation, the Scottish Juniors, and the other from Greenock Male Voice Choir, took three first places in the five classes open to the country, and came to London as the guests of the B.B.C.

I adduce that as evidence of the potential culture which is there if these people are assisted by the maintenance of the B.B.C.'s Scottish Orchestra, which, according to Press reports, is under threat of disbandment. It is alleged that a decision either has been made or is about to be made to disband that very fine orchestra. The proposed disbandment of this very fine orchestra has been the subject of the numerous letters in the Press and statements by organizations which have for their puryose the furthering of the cultural interests of Scotland.

I turn for my authority to the professors of Glasgow and Edinburgh Universities, the Director of the Royal Scottish Music Academy, and many other musicians who are personal friends of mine. Perhaps I should declare not a pecuniary interest in music, but the interest of one who has a modest connection with it. Many of my personal friends have been keeping me informed about what they think is going on and about the possibility of the B.B.C. disbanding its Scottish Orchestra. They call it a serious threat to music, they say that the orchestra is of irreplaceable value, and that its disbanding would be deplorable and calamitous.

It is true that many of the letters on the subject have been written on the assumption that such a decision has already been made, or in anticipation of such a decision. The B.B.C. must take the criticism that it has not helped the position by maintaining what is thought to be an ominous silence. We have no access to the facts and figures.

Can the Postmaster-General answer the first question, which is, naturally, whether a decision has already been made? If it has, will he say what it is? Am I not more correctly informed if I say that while no decision has been made, one is about to be made, perhaps in the next two or three days and certainly within the next two weeks? If that be so, if the Postmaster-General will be good enough to tell us, we shall know where to turn our attention and where to make our representations for the maintenance of this orchestra. The right hon. Gentleman will understand the urgent necessity of providing information on which the public, too, can be helped to make up its mind.

One thing will not be denied, that such a proposal has been considered for some months. The facts, as far as I know them, are these. About eighteen months ago, in 1957, the B.B.C. instituted a review of its artistic resources, as it said, in the interests of its listeners. We are entitled to know some of the factors which influenced the B.B.C. in its considerations. It instituted that review bearing in mind the amount of orchestral assistance from outside established orchestras, for example, the Philharmonic, the Halle, and the Scottish National Orchestra, which is the other of the only two orchestras of this type and this quality which Scotland has.

The B.B.C. should not be faulted for instituting a review. Rather would it have been faulted if it had not instituted a review. I should have thought that the B.B.C., like all big organisations, has constant reviews. However, what was the purpose of this review? Is it the intention of the B.B.C. to switch some of its artistic resources from sound radio to television? If that is the case, I should like to point out that on page 146 of its handbook, in a paragraph headed "Audiences for Sound Radio", the B.B.C. says: On the other hand, the amount of listening by those who possess sound radio receivers only is somewhat higher than a year ago; this is a reversal of the previous trend in which the amount of listening to sound radio was decreasing even more than could be accounted for by the growth of television. On page 151, in a paragraph appertaining to Scotland, the handbook says: In sound broadcasting 93 per cent. of the Scottish public are now ensured first-class reception of the B.B.C.'s domestic services since the opening of further v.h.f. stations at Rosemarkie and Sandale. There is one further sentence which I commend to the Minister and Governors of the B.B.C.: The Scottish Home Service, despite the growth of television, retained a greater proportion of listeners than in most other parts of the United Kingdom. Those are two telling quotations. First, those who have only sound radio are paying more attention to it. There is an increase in those who are listening. In addition, the proportion of listeners to sound radio in Scotland is higher than in other parts of the country. It appears, therefore, that there is substance for the maintenance of the present position, and to that end the retention of the B.B.C.'s Scottish Orchestra becomes most important.

What is the purpose of the review? If it is to review the financial aspects of the provision of such music, I should like to direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that from the information supplied in the handbook for 1959 one sees that the proportion of money spent on all orchestras—and there are 12 under the control of the B.B.C.; light orchestras, variety orchestras and symphony orchestras—is 4.31 per cent. of the total expenditure on sound radio.

That is a relatively small amount compared with the amount spent on artists, reproduction, and the rest, which is something like 22 per cent. to 23 per cent. Can the Minister tell us what proportion of the 4.31 per cent. spent on sound radio is spent on the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra, the Northern Orchestra and the London Symphony Orchestra? These three orchestras provide the same type of music and are the orchestras which I understand have been under close review.

One other proposal which is being canvassed is that with the disbandment of the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra the Scottish National Orchestra, which is the only other notable one in Scotland, could be built up to a figure of about 100 players and give better quality of production. While it is true that if the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra were disbanded a number of the string players could be added to the Scottish National Orchestra, it does not follow that some of the rarer instrumentalists, such as cor-anglais, oboe, and flute players, would stay in Scotland. They would have to come south of the Border because they would be unemployed.

The Scottish National Orchestra, which it is proposed to help by the disbandment of the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra, has been financially troubled for many years. None of these orchestras, as the hon. Gentleman probably knows, is financially solvent, not even the Hallé. With its present work, plus 40 broadcasts which the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra already does, plus the educational broadcasts, the cultural broadcasts, the Scottish National Orchestra would not be able to stand the strain. Moreover, if it were at last to go under for economic reasons, the position could arise that Scotland would be left wilt/lout an orchestra at all, which would be a disaster for the future educational and cultural position of the country.

This is an extremely serious business. If an orchestra is disbanded, it cannot be built up within six weeks or within six months. Six years is more like the period which would be necessary. I hope that the Minister can tell us that these problems are already known and we shall be happy to recognise that they are being examined from all angles.

If the Scottish B.B.C. Orchestra is disbanded and its work put on to the Scottish National Orchestra, as I have already pointed out there will be difficulties over rehearsals and the provision of musicians. What happens? Scotland has to send 200 miles away to Manchester for certain instrumentalists. or for an orchestra to assist the Scottish National Orchestra in its troubles, whereas the Northern Orchestra, which is akin to the Scottish Orchestra, can call upon other orchestras in the neighbourhood for assistance.

There is the Halle and the Liverpool Philharmonic. There is the orchestra at Manchester and the City of Birmingham Orchestra. The further south one goes the more possibilities there are of finding substitutes. But if the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra were disbanded, the future of the Scottish National Orchestra would not be too bright. The danger would arise that we should be left in Scotland without an orchestra at all.

The B.B.C. Orchestra is doing a great job of work both by playing and by fostering new Scottish composers and affording opportunities for young conductors. It does a tremendous amount of cultural work in the country and gives assistance to amateur societies and choral societies. The Scottish National Orchestra depends on the B.B.C. group to supply musicians. There is no margin of freelance players and the nearest orchestra is 200 miles away. Were the proposal to form one orchestra to be pursued, I am not a prophet, or the son of a prophet, but I suggest that three or four things would happen.

One orchestra would be far too busy to discharge all its duties and give an adequate service to the B.B.C. The players would be so busy that they would not be available for cultural work. Many of these players are music teachers in our day schools, or they take evening classes, and they are some of the finest teachers it is possible to get. They will be restricted in their activities and the potential supply of future musicians will be curtailed.

I wish to ask the Minister whether he can tell us what that important body, the National Broadcasting Council for Scotland, has had to say on this matter and what are its recommendations to the Government. Am I right in thinking that it shares the apprehension which I have voiced, that if one orchestra is formed the B.B.C. will not be able to provide the services which have hitherto been required of it under the terms of the Charter, of providing this good type of music for the North?

The B.B.C. gives about 40 broadcasts of this type in a year and it would be a great reflection on the prestige of Scotland if we had to call on the Hallé Orchestra or other orchestras. They are very good orchestras and one does not wish to say a word of criticism about them. I enjoy listening to those orchestras, as does everyone. But surely, in the matter of the prestige of Scotland, that is an argument which we should urge upon the Minister.

It is not part of my case to discuss the merits of one orchestra compared with another. But are the B.B.C. house orchestras, that is, the London Symphony, the Northern and the Scottish, being disbanded, and the B.B.C. continuing with outside orchestras? Is this being done to save expense, or to make way financially for a further extension of television? The axe is to fall upon one of these orchestras, but which one?

If that be the position, we would urge the Minister and the B.B.C. to realise that there is the greatest concern among people north of the Border about this matter. I urge the Minister to use whatever influence he has to the end that Scotland shall retain this orchestra. Those who argue for the merging of these two orchestras say that the Scottish National Orchestra would gain in financial security and that the B.B.C. would have one orchestra less to maintain, at a time when T.V. is gripping the public at the expense of sound broadcasting. I have already said that the result may be the disappearance of both orchestras. Scotland would be worse off them any country with a comparable population. I do not know of any small country in Europe but has at least two orchestras, one being for radio.

There are two other aspects which I would like to mention. I would ask the sympathy of the House in this matter, because these orchestras are important for the future of music in Scotland. If this orchestra goes, young conductors will have very poor prospects of gaining experience and Scottish composers will have the frustrating experienec of writing music without having an orchestra in Scotland available to express it. If there is one thing more suitable for sound radio than for television, it is orchestral music.

The Minister should appreciate that if I have appeared to speak with moderation and in measured terms, there is, nevertheless, deep anxiety at the ilea that this orchestra should be disbanded. I have been trying to express as sincerely as I can the concern felt by all those who are interested in these matters. In the past, orchestral music, musicians and the arts generally have been utterly dependent on the patronage of extremely wealthy people. Kings, queens and nobles have purchased these riches for their courts, courtiers and courtesans, and they held a monopoly of the pleasures derived from them. Today, all that is changed. Music is now under public patronage.

Humble men and women with no musical skill or training, but with a deep love of music, can turn a knob and find their modest homes flooded with the countless forms and combinations of glorious sounds bequeathed to them and to the world by the masters. No organisation has contributed more to this admirable position than has the B.B.C. I must pay a great tribute to the B.B.C. for the way in which it has lifted up standards of taste. It is not for me to make comparisons, but it is clear that the B.B.C. has fulfilled its function and duty in an excellent fashion.

If it is necessary for the B.B.C. to pay more attention to finance I could suggest methods on the television side that could do with great scrutiny, as to the amount of money, for example, spent in bringing people from Canada and Australia for "This is Your Life". These things give great enough offence, without a threat being held over Scottish music. The B.B.C. is in a unique position to keep its Scottish Orchestra going and to dispense public patronage to those humble people in their homes. My sincere plea is that the B.B.C. will decide to do so in the end.

9.39 p.m.

Mr. Knox Cunningham (Antrim, South)

I support the plea which has been made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) for the retention of the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra.

It may seem a daring thing for someone like myself to intervene in what is essentially a Scottish question, but I would ask hon. Members to bear with me. My mother came from the Lowlands of Scotland and my forebears, as indeed did most of the people in Ulster, came from that part of the country in the seventeenth century. That is one reason for my interest in this matter.

Music in Scotland is part of the cultural heritage of the whole of the United Kingdom. It will be a sad day if activities in music and in these orchestras have to be curtailed on purely financial grounds. Such curtailment will affect not only those who enjoy listening to the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra, but also the others who take part in local concerts, for professional players are often drawn from this orchestra to come and assist local concerts, local orchestras and societies.

If this orchestra is dissolved, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to meet all such demands and these activities are bound to suffer. Economy in such a matter is false economy. I am not making my plea as a musician, but as one who takes pleasure in listening to music.

May I end on a personal note? I went to school in Edinburgh, and my first appreciation of music came from a series of Sunday evening concerts held in the school. Musicians came from Edinburgh and other parts of Scotland to take part in those concerts. Listening to them opened up a new world to me, as it did to many others. I have been left with an abiding joy in music. I hope that some way will be found to ensure the continuing existence of this fine orchestra, and I ask my right hon. Friend to do all in his power to help in achieving this result.

9.42 p.m.

Mrs. Jean Mann (Coatbridge and Airdrie)

I am very glad to have the opportunity of speaking on this subject, because only a few days ago I managed to table a Notice of Motion on the Order Paper. It was signed by representative districts of Scotland—Dundee. Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Kilmarnock and Lanarkshire, and, indeed, many more are about to add their signatures.

I was inspired to table that Motion, amongst other reasons, by a letter from the Lanarkshire Educational Institute. The Lanarkshire Educational Institute wrote to me and asked me to make some move in this direction because the teachers of Lanarkshire felt that it would indeed be a retrograde step. The Postmaster-General has that letter. I sent it to him. He acknowledged it. I hope that tonight I may be successful in obtaining some reply which I can send to the Lanarkshire Educational Institute and, also, many others who have written to me regarding this.

I cannot hope to make such a good analysis and such a good speech as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan). We all know his long sustained interest in music. There have been few festivals or concerts of any note which my hon. Friend has not attended and in which his own family has not carried away prizes. I am also fortunate in having in my own family the solo flautist in the orchestra which gives concerts in St. Andrew's Hall, and solo 'cellist, and I know from my own grandsons how much they have benefited and how much all the schools of the West of Scotland have benefited from this culture.

As we look around at the young people of today we hear much about juvenile delinquency and rock 'n' roll to Lonnie Marshall and his One O'clock Gang, and it is inspiring to know that there are youngsters who have hitched their wagon to the other star. It is very difficult for boys of 12 or even 16, and for young girls from the age of seven upwards, such as my hon. Friend's daughter, to develop a love and taste for good classical music. One wonders how they do it and how it is that some are drawn into that sphere of life while others wander down other, and I think inferior, paths.

One cannot fail to appreciate how much the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra has done in this respect. Every school that has an orchestra sends its best players to the Atheneum on Saturday forenoon, and the tutors are usually from the Scottish Orchestra. In the summer, when the schools have closed, they gather for about a fortnight at Toward, surrounded by the leaders of the Scottish Orchestra, who are conducting each instrumental group. They give a concert at Dunoon and afterwards a big concert in St. Andrew's Hall. I know from experience that they send for some of these players to help even in the Welsh Eisteddfod and in other parts of England.

Perhaps it is too much to say that the B.B.C. ought to set itself out to do this educational work. I understand that one of its functions is to entertain. Surely in performing this work the B.B.C. is entertaining these children. I have seen children rush home in order to listen to the various instruments as they came on, and I have heard them hush each other and say, "Listen, here is the flute, or the 'cello, coming in." There is no doubt that they benefit a great deal from this kind of education and that the B.B.C. is attracting a big, youthful and also a parental group of listeners.

I hope that this point will be appreciated and that we shall not lose this link. One by one our old cultural links seem to be disappearing. One cannot but deplore that this link is threatened with disappearance, since it attracts an audience from such a large number of our youth and of the children from the schools.

I am very glad to see the Postmaster-General on the Front Bench opposite. I believe that he is very interested personally in this matter. and although the Clerks at the Table told us that they could not pass our Questions on this subject to him because he is not responsible for the programmes, I am very pleased to see that he has come to reply to this debate. I hope that tonight he will give a word of cheer to Scotland.

9.51 p.m.

Commander C. E. M. Donaldson (Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles)

In following the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann), I should like to continue in the same tone in welcoming the fact that my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General was here in person to hear the arguments so well deployed by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan). With his knowledge of the subject, he has advanced his argument with balance, without rancour, and, as he said, without wishing to interject any political difference into the debate.

It is in that spirit that I rise to sustain the hon. Gentleman in his arguments, which I could not emulate in detail, and to plead with my right hon. Friend that if there be any doubt about the future of the Scottish Orchestra and music in Scotland in general he will do what is in his power to put the brake on any sudden decisions which might disrupt the harmony of Scotland. I am not only referring to the harmony produced by the Scottish Orchestra, for there has already been reference to the young orchestras in Scotland and the youngsters who interest themselves in music. Even in Scotland we are not unappreciative of music. There is not one of the eight towns in the three counties that does not have its own opera company, and, of course, an opera company requires an orchestra. All these young people who have this interest in music have one ambition, and that is to play in the Scottish Orchestra.

We discussed yesterday in the Scottish Grand Committee the subject of the tourist industry in Scotland. Naturally, reference was made to the International Festival of Music and Drama which is held annually in Edinburgh. Although it is held in the capital of Scotland, it is international in its aspect and is appreciated by people from all over the world. The hon. Member for Maryhill has talked of the Hallé Orchestra and of orchestras in Birmingham, Liverpool and other places, and these great orchestras are invited to take part in this Festival of Music and Drama in Edinburgh. We have had the New York Philharmonic Orchestra and orchestras from the Continent. Scots come from the four corners of the world, including those who were born in Scotland, and third and fourth generations of Scots who, with the homing instinct, have returned to the land of their birth Or of their forefathers, and have appreciated this Festival. But they particularly appreciate the opportunity to listen to Scotland's musical culture when Scotland's own orchestra plays in the Usher Hall in Edinburgh.

It is fortunate that this Adjournment debate began early and has provided an opportunity for a broader and more encompassing discussion than is normally possible in the half hour available. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill and indeed the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Knox Cunningham) with all his Scottish connections. Of course, we are united in this Adjournment debate. There is no lack of harmony. Indeed, there is a concerted voice directed to my right hon. Friend. We shall be disappointed if he cannot keep in tune with the voices that have been heard tonight and give us a word of encouragement that the sound of good and wholesome music may be continued in Scotland in the years to come.

9.55 p.m.

Mr. James H. Hoy (Edinburgh, Leith)

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) introduced this debate in an admirable way. It was a first-class speech, the sort of speech one expects from my hon. Friend, with his long and intimate connection with the world of music. He is absent for a few moments, and he will not mind my telling the House that he is absent now in the interests of music, because he has gone to get news of a music festival and competition taking place in Glasgow this evening in which his daughter is taking part.

The spread of music can be seen all over the country. I was interested to hear that mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann). One of the outstanding events of the Edinburgh Festival of Music and Drama took place last year. It has always been argued that this type of music was confined to a certain section of the community, but, last year, perhaps the greatest trio in the world—Mr. Yehudi Menuhin was a member of it—decided to give a concert free of charge at a housing estate in the capital city. Flours before the doors were opened, the queues had gathered and hundreds of ordinary working people who wanted to attend this concert and hear those artists had to be turned away.

When we are discussing this type of orchestra, a word of praise might be said—my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill will excuse my saying this—for orchestras like the Reid Orchestra of Edinburgh which is doing a great deal of good work. It would be a tragedy if Scotland were to be left without its national orchestra. It would really be hypocrisy if we were to invite people from all over the world to come to Scotland's capital to the International Festival of Music and Drama while, at the same time, disbanding one of the two big orchestras we have in our country. It would be a sad commentary on our position, quite apart from the results entailed.

I will not argue the case tonight because this debate is not the occasion for it, but I understand that the Scottish Broadcasting Corporation has the right to select and produce its own programmes. I understand that the only items it must accept from the South are news bulletins and political broadcasts when they are put out on a British basis. All remaining power is left to the Scottish Broadcasting Corporation. I believe that this should be so, and it would be a great tragedy if it were not to have the power to operate its own orchestra and programmes.

I will content myself by saying that this is a matter of outstanding importance. I am sure that the Postmaster-General recognises that, and his presence tonight is evidence of his attitude. I hope that, before the debate finishes, he will be able to assure Scotland that the orchestra is safe for many years to come.

9.59 p.m.

Mr. F. G. Willis (Edinburgh, East)

I am glad to have the opportunity of joining with hon. Members on both sides who have pressed for the continuation of the B.B.C. Scottish Orchestra. There can be no doubt at all that, during the past ten or twenty years, the British Broadcasting Corporation has rendered immense service to the United Kingdom in music. This applies in Scotland, also. As well as the B.B.C., we must remember the Arts Council, which has done an equally good job, particularly in the remoter areas of Scotland, quite apart from what it does in the Edinburgli Festival itself.

As a result of the good work that has been done, we have managed to build a foundation of musicians—

It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Chichester-Clark.]

Mr. Willis

—which renders a great service to the people of Scotland in numerous spheres. It supplies us now with teachers, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) said. It supplies us not only with music but enables us to provide sufficient employment for musicians to go to the remoter areas of Scotland, the small villages right away up to the Highlands, supported, of course, by the Arts Council, to provide music for people who very rarely have an opportunity to hear good music, except over the wireless.

If we knock away one of the main supports of this growth of musical appreciation in Scotland, we shall have dealt an irreparable blow to our Scottish cultural traditions. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) pointed out, this would be particularly tragic at a time when Edinburgh is winning for itself a world-wide name in respect of its international festival.

I do not want to take up much time tonight, but I want to put this point to the Postmaster-General. If the B.B.C. finds it necessary to close down one or more regional orchestras, I hope that it will remember that Scotland is not a region. I think that the Royal Commission made a recommendation that Scotland should never be considered a region and certainly, in the sphere of music, Scotland is not a region.

Towards the end of the last century, Scotland produced its own National School of Music, of which the great composer Mackenzie was the leader. He was one of the great figures in Scottish music. Scotland produced other great composers at the time that other nations were producing music with their own national idiom. We have that in Scotland. Scotland is a nation with its own music and own particular idiom in music, which is finding expression today in the works of some of the modern composers. In view of that, I do not think that Scotland should be regarded as a region at all by the B.B.C. It is a nation which is surely entitled to an orchestra, not only to the Scottish National Orchestra which was kept for many years as a result of the private subscriptions of members who guaranteed that the orchestra would pay its way through a guarantee fund, but also through the B.B.C. itself.

I would appeal to the Postmaster-General and to the Governors of the B.B.C. not to treat Scotland in this way. This is rather more important to Scotland, because of its curious situation, than it is to the South of England. London is full of music of all kinds. It has first-class performances and orchestras every night. We cannot get that in Scotland. Other large towns in England, such as Birmingham, which has already been mentioned, have all got this far more than we have. We can ill-afford to lose any of what we have, particularly if we want to build on this foundation to provide a livelihood for the people engaged in these activities and also to provide a future for the musical pupils of our schools.

What are we to do with those who come from Scotland to the Royal College of Music and then go back to Scotland? At present, some of them go into the B.B.C. but many others will have to seek, as, unfortunately, so many Scotsmen do, a living abroad. There are dozens of other reasons why this orchestra should not be lost, and I appeal to the Postmaster-General, in view of the general unanimous expression of opinion and views very rightly expressed in the Press, to consider this matter most carefully before he allows this orchestra to be struck out of Scottish culture.

10.5 p.m.

The Postmaster-General (Mr. Ernest Marples)

I assure the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) that in the Post Office we fully recognise that Scotland is not a region. We call our representative who is in charge of Scotland, the Director of the Post Office in Scotland, not the director of a region. When I first went to the Post Office, I made a mistake and called him a regional director and I heard a few remarks that were not wholly flattering to the Postmaster-General. In addition, we even give Scotland a separate coat of arms and in many ways in the Post Office we try our best to ensure that the distinctive national character of Scotland is retained.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

Except on stamps.

Mr. Marples

I am grateful for the intervention of the hon. Member, who was born in Wales.

We have had an interesting debate with great unanimity. I am sure that everybody in the House would like to say how grateful we are to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) for the moderate, lucid and balanced way in which he presented his case. Nobody could possibly have taken offence at what he said and I am sure that everybody listened—I did certainly—to his point with the greatest of keenness.

The hon. Member raised the important point that sound is important to Scotland because Scotland has technical difficulties with television, which necessarily will take time to solve. I realise that sound is important to Scotland. Incidentally, more and more. I am moving from television to sound myself. When I go home at night, I look at the television and I turn on the sound. It is my job to listen and look at them all and I am tending more and more to go back to sound. That is my personal preference.

I have listened with sympathy and understanding to what has been said. First, I must say categorically that it is not for the Postmaster-General or for the Government to intervene in this matter. Questions relating to the management of the orchestral resources are a matter for the B.B.C. itself. The independence of the B.B.C. has been of great value to the country, notably during the war and in its news, and it would be folly for the Government to intervene on any controversial question that the B.B.C. has to deal with in its day-to-day matters.

Successive Governments have endorsed that view. In the 1946 White Paper, the party opposite give the B.B.C. full independence. In 1951, they said: The Government accept the Committee's recommendations that the current independence of the Corporation in making programmes and in general administration should be continued. In the 1952 White Paper, the present Government said: The Government accept the Broadcasting Committee's recommendation that the Corporation's current independence in making programmes and in general administration should be continued. I am sure that it would be the wish of almost everyone in the House that the B.B.C. should have independence. Therefore, there is little I can do except to make certain that the Chairman of the B.B.C. and the Governors get a report of this debate, with my observations upon it, so that at least they will be able to take into account the contributions of hon. Members today.

I have, however, been to great pains to get from the B.B.C. some information which I think the House would wish to have, although it will, of course, be understood that I have no responsibility. Let me say first, however, that for a long time I was taken to listen to the Hallé Orchestra. I have a wife who plays the piano too frequently and too loudly for my liking, but I am not in a position to criticise. Also, during the war I was a regimental sergeant major in the London Scottish and we listened to some peculiar instrument called the bagpipe, which aroused me at reveille in the morning. If anyone has heard that sweet instrument on a dark morning when it has been raining, he will be a music lover for the rest of his life.

The first of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Maryhill was what decision had been taken or whether it had been made. A large part of the debate proceeded on the assumption that a decision had been made. I can say categorically that no decision has been taken and that most of the alarm has been caused by rumours circulating in the newspapers.

I can also say that the B.B.C. has informed me that it is reviewing the scale and character of what it calls its house orchestra resources in total, of which there are 13 altogether. There are 12, plus the London Studio Players, with 515 players altogether employed, which is more than the number of football players in Divisions I and II in England, not Scotland, on Saturday afternoons. It is now engaged in a periodic review of these resources and its concern is that it should review its organisation and arrangements in the various fields from time to time.

In music programming and other types of programming it is right that it should do its best to ensure the most efficient and highest standards of music broadcasting. It is not the case that the review is being undertaken solely to effect economies, although it is obviously good if economy and efficiency can be combined. The purpose is to review the whole of the orchestral resources and not the Scottish orchestras in isolation.

I reassure the House that the B.B.C. has informed me that it is no part of its object to reduce the amount of music in sound broadcasting. Those two assurances are well worth while having. The B.B.C. has a primary duty in music to the listening public. Its aim is to preserve the music broadcasting service as the best in the world. I can assure the House that the Chairman of the Governors himself has told me that it has had a good record in the past, and I see no reason why it should be mistrusted now if it declares that to be its aim.

Another important aim is to foster the interests of musicians and musical organisations in the long-term interests of music There is no doubt about that. In industry, unless there is a continuous flow of apprentices who are properly taught and who are allowed to carry out their craft, one loses ultimately the craftsmen on whom one relies. The B.B.C. realises that, because it told me that its secondary, although again a most important aim, is to foster the interests of musicians and musical organisations in the long-term interests of music.

It is up to the B.B.C. to consider the number and character of full-time orchestras which it maintains. It has to have regard to things such as the rôle which it plays in teaching, training and musical employment and also in the encouragement of concert-going. The importance of music is recognised by the B.B.C., and we all agree that this country owes a great debt to the Corporation for its enlightened music policy over the years.

It was as a result of the direct action of the B.B.C. that a national institution, the Sir Henry Wood Promenade Concerts, was preserved instead of being lost to the nation, and the present widespread appreciation of good music owes a good deal to the Corporation's initiative.

I have tried to give assurances to the House without being directly responsible for them. I hope that the explanation which I have given about the purpose of review will at least assure Members that all considerations will be weighed and that the interests of Scotland and, indeed, of all the other parts of the United Kingdom will be taken into account.

The hon. Member for Maryhill asked some specific questions. The first was: when will the decision be made if it has not already been made? The vague answer which I received from the B.B.C. was, "In the near future". I do not know the answer because I have not seen the evidence and I do not know how far the B.B.C. has gone, but I should not have thought that it would be more than a month or two.

The hon. Member also asked whether the revenue expenditure on permanent orchestras, which he said came to just over £½ million—£510,840 or 4.31 per cent, of the total—could be broken down to show the cost of the individual orchestras, namely, the B.B.C. Symphony, the B.B.C. Scottish and B.B.C. Northern Orchestras. The figures have not been published and I am not sure what the relevance would be, but I have made clear that the present review is in no way a question of retrenchment. It is a review to consider the best way of providing the highest standards of broadcasting.

The hon. Gentleman also asked: what has been the object of the Broadcasting Council for Scotland? Frankly, I cannot tell him, because I do not know what evidence it has submitted to the B.B.C. The B.B.C. has told me that it will take the Council's views fully into account. I hope that that has answered those questions.

My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Knox Cunningham) came in to give his views on music in Scotland. In view of his love of music and his great skill as a heavy-weight boxing champion, I listened to him with the greatest respect. I assure him that economy is not the object of this exercise. I have in my file the letter to which the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) referred. I think that extracts from the OFFICIAL REPORT will enable her to reply to the letter but, in any case, I shall write a specific reply later.

I will say to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Roxburgh Selkirk and Peebles (Commander Donaldson) that we appreciate the fact that in Scotland, where it is desired to enable as many people to remain as possible, it is necessary to give them openings to culture so that young people can join such organisations as the Scottish National Orchestra. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) for the information that the daughter of the hon. Member for Maryhill was taking part in a competition tonight. I am sure that the whole House hopes that she was successful.

I assure the hon. Member for Leith that the regional character of broadcasting is of the greatest importance. It may be that the main weight of a broadcast programme should come from the central area, on the grounds of economy and efficiency but there is no doubt that a substantial proportion of programmes over these islands should be devoted to the regional interests of an area.

Mr. Willis

The national interest in Scotland—not the regional interest.

Mr. Marples

I stand corrected. It is the same mistake that I made when I became Postmaster-General. The spirit was willing, but the words were weak.

I hope that the B.B.C. will take the debate into account. 1 shall send a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT to the Chairman. with my own remarks. If any hon. Members want to write to me with specific points not made in the debate, or points which occur to them after the debate, I shall be delighted to forward their views to the B.B.C. I hope that I have not been out of tune in my remarks with the orchestra which was so unanimous here tonight.

10.17 p.m.

Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)

I was a little disappointed that by this time the B.B.C. had not authorised the Minister to give us a rather firmer assurance than we had from him tonight, but I understand, as I am sure that the House understands perfectly, his position. He does not want to appear to be interfering with programmes.

This matter goes beyond the question of mere programmes. It is a question of very considerable public policy as to whether there should be any diminution in the educational value of the B.B.C. in its development of music. I sympathise with the Postmaster-General's views about bagpipes. I was once asked, in a "Matter of Opinion" programme on the wireless, whether I considered bagpipes to be the finest musical instruments in the world. I said that I was doubtful about giving an answer to that question but that some people certainly thought that they were. I recalled that there was a Scottish soldier in hospital who was not likely to survive the night. He was granted his last request that bagpipes should play round the hospital all night. To the surprise of the doctors, next day the soldier had recovered, but all the other patients were dead.

The bagpipes are regarded by some people in some places as the finest musical instruments. I remind the House that when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) saw the men marching at Tobruk to the swing of the pipes the tears ran down his cheeks. It was probably the finest music he had heard in his life. There is a wrong impression, however, that Scotland is a nation steeped in music in the same way as are Germany, Italy and certain other countries.

Up to recent times, Scotland was completely starved of that type of music. In my early life I had no opportunity of hearing an orchestra such as the hon. and learned Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Knox Cunningham) said he heard in school. The only bands heard in my youth were the so-called German bands which played in the streets. Children used to follow them from street to street because they satisfied their hunger for music. The violin or fiddle was the instrument best known to the Scottish public.

If the Minister would like to learn a little Scottish history in this matter he should read the recitation on the minister's fiddle, where the minister nearly lost his place in the church—I am sure that Mr. Speaker recollects the atmosphere—because he dared to play the fiddle. The idea of having a musical instrument was considered to be almost a sin and so, when people danced in the Highlands, they did not have instruments, they sang their music for dancing.

Where Scotland excelled was in folk music, which came from the heart. We have had great contributions made to Scottish music by Mendelssohn, Rutland Boughton and other people who have conveyed the atmosphere of Scotland in music of great charm and beauty. However, the development of orchestral music for our people has been a recent development in which the gramophone and the B.B.C. have played a magnificent part.

When the B.B.C. reads the OFFICIAL REPORT of this debate it ought to feel flattered and complimented by the great interest taken even over the fear of the orchestra disappearing. Indeed, I question whether the B.B.C. will realise how much it has been appreciated until it sees the correspondence in the Press and learn of the agitation which has developed in Scotland. The excellent speeches delivered by my colleagues from Scotland tonight are an indication of the general feeling that seems to be expressed all over the country about the possible disappearance of the orchestra.

When the B.B.C. is considering the overall plan for Britain, I hope that it will remember the parable of the ewe lamb. This is practically the only orchestra in Scotland which is secure. There is the Scottish National Orchestra and the Reid Orchestra, but there is no guarantee that they will continue. Opera and orchestras cannot be supported without patronage. Even the famous Bournemouth orchestra has had to depend a great deal upon the patronage of many other towns to survive. Therefore, if the patronage of the B.B.C. were removed from this orchestral development in Scotland, there would be great danger of Scotland being deprived of an ochestra.

There has been the wonderful experiment of Yehudi Menuhin coming to Leith and the response that came from those who listened to that concert. He said that he got into trouble through offering to give the concert, but that it was one of the finest experiences of his life. Those who went to the concert would not have the opportunity of hearing such an instrumentalist if it were not for the B.B.C. I therefore hope the Minister will not merely forward the OFFICIAL REPORT of this debate to the B.B.C. but will say that it has convinced him that feeling in Scotland on these matters is strong.

The right bon. Gentleman would be doing a great service if he could persuade the B.B.C. to reassure the general public of Scotland at an early date that, whatever changes are made, they will not result in the loss of the orchestra and the valuable work it is doing in the musical education of the public by getting people to appreciate the beauty of music. It takes a long time to build a musical nation, and although we have folk songs, those are the music of the people, and our instrumental education is of recent growth, and necessarily of slow growth. The B.B.C. has played a great part in this. I hope that it will be encouraged to give an early decision to keep the orchestra alive.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.