HC Deb 17 March 1959 vol 602 cc176-9
5. Mr. H. Wilson

asked the Minister of Works what changes he proposes to make in the architects' department of his Department to enable it to draw up plans for the proposed employment exchange in Kirkby in a period shorter than the two years stated by him to be necessary.

The Minister of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson)

None, Sir. This is a large project involving a number of Departments, and the time required for consultations with the planning authorities and the detailed work essential for a firm price tender is not excessive. There is not sufficient urgency about this job which would justify me in giving it priority in the programme of work.

Mr. Wilson

Yes, Sir, but is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that Sir Christopher Wren designed St. Paul's Cathedral in less time than it has taken his Department to design a small employment exchange in Kirkby? Has he not plans in his Department which can be used in such cases? Is he aware that when we were in power we had the drawings for this Chamber and the surrounding buildings done in far less time? Why does he say that there is no urgency, when we have heavy unemployment in this very area?

Mr. Molson

I very much doubt whether my predecessor did in fact prepare plans for St. Paul's Cathedral in such a very short time. In the two years which we require, we need ten months for planning consultations with the three Government Departments which are to occupy this large building, and for preparing sketch plans; eight months for the working drawings; three months for preparing the bills of quantities; and three months for inviting tenders from contractors. It is our general policy to plan buildings in advance to meet the requirements of occupying Departments and I do not regard this as being an excessive period of time. There is no urgency about this at the present time since the Departments have adequate accommodation.

Mr. Wilson

Yes, but as the right hon. Gentleman really thinks it takes all these periods of time to do the work of designing an employment exchange for which designs must be on the stocks, how do the Government propose to solve the unemployment problem in areas like this? On the right hon. Gentleman's argument it will take even longer to build the factories which the Government are so far failing to divert to the Development Areas?

Mr. Molson

We do not build all employment exchanges to the same design. We consider the site. In this case, as I have said, we are accommodating the Ministry of Labour and National Service, the National Assistance Board and the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance all in the same building.

Mr. Dudley Williams

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Socialist Government, who were responsible in 1931 for getting unemployment to the highest figure ever known in this country, ever made any attempt to extend the employment exchange of this town at that time? [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Hayman.

Mr. Wilson

On a point of order. Since the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Dudley Williams) wanted to know whether we—

Mr. Speaker

That does not sound like a point of order. We seem to be expanding a Question on an employment exchange to a discussion of the question of employment. I think it was originally asked by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). Mr. Hayman.

Mr. H. Hynd

The hon. Member told a lie, Mr. Speaker.

Captain Pilkington

On a point of order. The hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) has just stated that my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Dudley Williams) told a lie. Cannot the hon. Member be reprimanded and made to withdraw that expression?

Mr. Speaker

I did not hear it said. Was it said? Did the hon. Member for Accrington accuse another hon. Member of telling a lie?

Mr. H. Hynd

Yes, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I did not use the proper Parliamentary expression. I intended to say that the hon. Member was guilty of a terminological inexactitude.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member ought to make a manly withdrawal, if he used that expression.

Mr. S. Silverman

Further to that point of order. Has it ever been the custom of the House for the Chair to take notice of muttered remarks, unjustified remarks, and contradictions from the other side, when they were not made in speeches?

Mr. Speaker

The Chair listens to as much as it can hear and sometimes to as little as it can hear. I did not hear anything wrong in what was said. Mr. Hayman.

Mr. H. Wilson rose

—

Mr. Dudley Williams

May I have my apology, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Wilson

On my original point of order. Is it in order for the hon. Member for Exeter to ask why things were not done in this town eight years ago when the town has been in existence for only four years?

Mr. Speaker

No, it was not in order, and that is why I did not permit the Minister to answer it.

Mr. H. Hynd

May I ask a question, Mr. Speaker? As the hon. Member for Exeter made a complete misstatement of fact, and as that has been repeated—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about the lie"?]—so often in this House, it is time it was nailed. It is a lie, and he knows that it is not true.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member is just making things worse. He ought to withdraw if he accused another hon. Member of telling a lie. He ought to withdraw the word.

Hon. Members

Withdraw.

Mr. H. Hynd

When you first chided me, Mr. Speaker, I did withdraw it in favour of the traditional phrase "terminological inexactitude".

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Hayman.