40. Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he intends to set up a court of inquiry into the incident that took place recently in Uganda when police opened fire on a crowd of persons watching a wrestling match.
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydI assume that the right hon. Member refers to the riot which took place at Katwe on 4th June, on which I gave a full report in my reply to the hon. Members for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) and Flint, East (Mrs. E. White) on 11th June. In the light of this report I do not consider that a court of inquiry into the incident is necessary or desirable.
Mr. DugdaleIs not the Colonial Secretary aware that my information, obtained from eye witnesses and from my own visit to the place shortly after the shooting, differs in many respects from his? Is he also aware, in particular, that the crowd was not engaged in any political activity but was watching a wrestling match and dancing, and that ail it did was to break a regulation that there should not be more than 250 people together? Finally, is he aware that the 239 police opened fire without reading the Riot Act? Does he think that this is desirable, and that if such things happened in this country there would not be an inquiry? Why should there not be an inquiry if they happen in Uganda?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydI made a long statement on this matter in reply to a Question and I have nothing to add to that statement. I cannot accept the value of the sources from which the right hon. Gentleman claims to have his information. I have proof that those for whom he claims to speak repudiate his right to speak on their behalf. The best comment upon his journey is an article in the Uganda Argus which described him as "an innocent abroad".
Mr. Creech JonesWas there not once in the Colonial Office a very healthy practice that when serious events of this kind occurred involving loss of life an independent inquiry was held? Has the Colonial Secretary abandoned that practice altogether?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydNo, but if the right hon. Gentleman were still occupying my post he would get his facts correct. No one was killed on this occasion.
§ Mr. CallaghanIs it not possible for the Colonial Secretary, instead of trying to score runs, to tell the House a little more fully what is happening? Is it not the case, if people are fired on in a crowd for whatever reason, that that ought to be a most unusual occurrence in a Colonial Territory? Are the men against whom the firing was directed being charged with riotous assembly or some charge of that sort? In other words, how are these facts to become known before the Colonial Secretary condemns my right hon. Friend?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydOf the nineteen persons charged in connection with the riot at Katwe eleven have appeared before the magistrates, three have been released for lack of evidence, four have been remanded, six are awaiting a court hearing, and two are still in hospital.
§ Mr. CallaghanIn view of the fact that no one has yet been found guilty of the charges brought against him, does the Colonial Secretary think he is justified in the strictures which he has applied to my right hon. Friend?
Mr. DugdaleAlthough the Colonial Secretary is perfectly correct in saying that on one was killed, is he aware that I have seen a woman with shrapnel wounds in her breast as the result of the shooting by the police. Will he take this matter a little more seriously?
§ Mr. P. WilliamsOn a point of order. In view of the fact that the earlier reply of my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary showed that the whole matter is sub judice, are we not stretching the bounds of order in pursuing the matter in this House at all, and are not the imputations being cast by hon. Members opposite wholly unjustified by the facts of the situation?
§ Mr. SpeakerI do not know about the facts, but it did appear, from the Colonial Secretary's last answer—if I understood him aright—that some of these people are on remand, which means that the court is still to consider their cases. Presumably that would put these cases sub judice.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsWas not my right hon. Friend's original Question to ask the Colonial Secretary to hold an inquiry? Is it not a fact that such inquiries used to be held in the past?
§ Mr. S. SilvermanFurther to the same point of order. If it be a fact that all these matters are sub judice, so that the question of whether anyone was pursuing unlawful conduct at the time when the shooting took place is still before the courts and not decided, was it not most improper of the Colonial Secretary to make a retort to my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) which implied that his statement of their innocence of any offence only showed that he was an innocent abroad?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe purpose of the rule relating to criminal matters which are sub judice is that this House should be scrupulously careful not to prejudice the trial of persons who may be accused by making statements about them. That is the general rule—
§ Mr. Silverman rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerThe House has generally shown a certain reticence about such matters if they are even connected with a criminal prosecution.
§ Mr. SilvermanI am much obliged, Mr. Speaker. That was exactly the point which I was putting to you and on which I would like your Ruling. Was not the statement to which I referred, made by the Colonial Secretary, highly prejudicial and embarrassing to the defence in any proceedings which are now going on?
§ Mr. SpeakerI do not know enough about these things to express a view on them. It seems to me to have been a remark directed more against the right hon. Member for West Bromwich than against any of the persons involved in the riot.
Mr. DugdaleIn view of the most unsatisfactory statement made by the Colonial Secretary, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.