HC Deb 24 June 1959 vol 607 cc1189-91
52. Dr. King

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many boys from public schools were interviewed at preliminary boards for Royal Naval scholarships in January, after passing the written examination; how many of these were awarded scholarships; how many boys from State secondary schools were interviewed; and how many of these were awarded scholarships.

The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing)

From independent schools, including nautical schools. 81 boys were interviewed at preliminary boards, and 22 were awarded scholarships to begin in January, 1959; from schools partly or wholly supported by the State 82 were interviewed and 3 were awarded scholarships.

There was no written examination for these scholarships.

Dr. King

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the last First Lord of the Admiralty shared the view of hon. Members on this side of the House that all the qualities which make a good officer are to be found in outstanding boys in all social classes? What other factors is the Admiralty insisting upon which exclude children who come from the majority of schools?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

Last month, a director of education of a county borough in the North himself served as a member of the Admiralty Interviewing Board, and perhaps I could quote to the House what he wrote, since I have his permission to quote it. My own Committee were particularly concerned on the question of the selection of boys from normal schools who might be handicapped by a weakness in accent and behaviour. He added: The President of the Board and all the members were in all cases very generous in their treatment of such boys."—[Interruption.] This is a quotation from the director of education of a county borough who had himself been anxious, and he wrote: I saw no case in which any boy was put at a disadvantage, and indeed every possible positive quality was brought to the surface by some member of the Board. If the hon. Member still has doubts, perhaps he would himself accept an invitation—[Interruption.] I hope the hon. Gentleman will please listen to my answer. If the hon. Member still has doubts, perhaps he will accept an invitation to sit in on a board and see for himself. This was quite independent.

Mr. G. Brown

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he cannot pass this to any individual hon. Member of this House? What does he think was meant by "weakness in accent"? Would he say whether the Government themselves accept that as a disqualification of young men for training to be officers? Does he not think that the figures themselves disclose such an outrageous situation that the Government themselves should inquire into this matter and do something about it?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

Of course, I do not accept that accent should in any way be a quality. This man reported that he had anxiety and that his education committee had anxiety, and that is why he sat in as a full member of the board. Perhaps in response to the second supplementary question, I may give another quotation from his report: I see now that boys from Northern schools of the right type do not apply in sufficient numbers, and no doubt much of this is due to Head Teachers and parents not encouraging such applications. It is not only the accent, but the quality of the boys, and we are most anxious to have more boys from this type of school. If anything can be done to encourage them by increasing Royal Navy propaganda in the North and elsewhere, I should be very happy to help it on.

Mr. W. R. Williams

Is the Minister aware that the reason why many very promising boys from the North, and from Lancashire especially, do not apply is that their experience of the past has been that it is no use them applying? Is he also aware that even after I made representations to the Admiralty, some excellent boys in my own experience have still been unable to get commissions in the Royal Navy? Is it surprising, therefore, that they are not trying when they know that the result will be against them from the very beginning?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

There is another Question on this subject which deals with wider aspects, and not just with scholarship boys. I was answering on scholarship boys.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Ought not the Government to condemn outright this piece of snobbery?