HC Deb 10 June 1959 vol 606 cc987-9
49 and 50. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Minister of Defence (1) the present strength in numbers of the West German forces available to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, giving the number for each arm respectively;

(2) the total strength of ground troops in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forces giving the contribution from each of the member countries.

The Minister of Defence (Mr. Duncan Sandys)

I am afraid I am not free to publish information obtained from N.A.T.O. about the armed forces of other countries.

Mr. Shinwell

What is the reason for this secrecy? In view of the optimistic and glowing statement about the strength of the N.A.T.O. forces made recently by the Supreme Commander and others associated with N.A.T.O., is not it desirable that the public should be informed whether this statement is correct? Will the West German forces be armed with atomic weapons? What contribution have the French Government made to N.A.T.O.? Are they making any contribution in regard to any of the Services at the present time?

Mr. Sandys

The right hon. Gentleman has asked me rather a mouthful. On secrecy, it is just a matter of normal practice in order that when confidential information about the size of forces is communicated to N.A.T.O. by a country, and circulated by N.A.T.O. to other Governments concerned, the information shall not be broadcast.

Mr. Shinwell

How are we to get this information, in view of the optimistic statements that have been made? Is N.A.T.O. strong or is it weak? What is the position? It is no use the right hon. Gentleman attending functions at the Guildhall, and similar functions, and making optimistic and glowing statements about the strength of N.A.T.O. when in fact he is not prepared to substantiate them.

Mr. Sandys

I remember that when the right hon. Gentleman was Minister of Defence I tried to get very similar information from him and quite unsuccessfully.

Mr. Bevan

In view of the fact that we are told in this House about the strength of our Armed Forces and are also told that the strength of N.A.T.O. is supposed to be part of the strength of Great Britain, how can we know what the strength of our own country is if we do not know what the strength of N.A.T.O. is?

Mr. Sandys

It is the right hon. Gentleman who does not know.

Mr. Bevan

With all respect to that schoolboyish reply, perhaps now we can have a serious answer. Is it not a fact that we have been told that the defence of this country and the defences of any of the N.A.T.O. countries are interdependent, one upon the other? If each one knows what its own defensive strength is but is not told the defence strength of the others, how can we assume that our own defence is strong?

Mr. Sandys

I do not think that we have ourselves published the precise information asked for by the right hon. Gentleman?

Mr. Shinwell

The Estimates?

Mr. Sandys

The Army is easy, but what the right hon. Gentleman asks for is the strength of the West German forces available to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. That is not an easy sum in actual fact to make out. Some forces are actually assigned and others are assigned in time of war. It is not a straightforward piece of arithmetic.

Mr. Bevan

The right hon. Gentleman does not know.

Mr. Sandys

I could give the right hon. Gentleman a very long explanation of the position but I could not give him one figure, because that is not possible.

Mr. Paget

What are the secrecy rules? Who are the people who are allowed to give this information? General Norstad and various people give us detailed information. The Bundestag is given this information. Of course, there have to be things on the secret list, but since all these people come over from N.A.T.O. to lecture us about these matters, why cannot the House of Commons be told?

Mr. Sandys

I think I have already answered that supplementary question

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that from time to time in this House we are asked in Committee to provide Supply for the forces contributed to N.A.T.O.? In view of that, cannot we have some information as to the numbers and strength? Is he aware that when I was Minister of Defence I was asked about N.A.T.O. and I stated in this House that we intended to provide four divisions in addition to the fact that we were preparing twelve territorial divisions at that time? Why should not the right hon. Gentleman give the information when undoubtedly the figures are different?

Mr. Sandys

The right hon. Member does not ask about British forces, but the forces of everybody else. As to the British forces, it has been said over and over again what the Army position is. As to the Navy and the Air Force, it is more difficult because the Navy as a whole is available to N.A.T.O. in the event of war, but it is a little unrealistic to say that vessels at Singapore are really usefully available to N.A.T.O. Therefore, I should not like to give a figure in that kind of way.