HC Deb 24 July 1959 vol 609 cc1707-11

Lords Amendment: In page 84, line 21, at end insert: (bb) for enabling a tribunal to dispose of an application without a formal hearing where such a hearing is not requested by the applicant or it appears to the tribunal that such a hearing would be detrimental to the health of the patient;

Mr. Walker-Smith

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is an Amendment to Clause 124, which empowers the Lord Chancellor to make rules as to the procedure of mental health review tribunals. When we discussed this matter in Committee, I pointed out that our intention is that a formal hearing should be arranged only when the applicant so desires and requests, and that, otherwise, where he does not so desire and request, the proceedings should be quite informal. The object and effect of this Amendment is to remove any possible doubt that this can be appropriately provided for in the rules.

I should make it clear that where the applicant requests a formal hearing, it is the intention of the Lord Chancellor that the tribunal shall normally arrange one. We have sought to give the tribunal a discretion in cases where a formal hearing would be detrimental to the patient's health where, for example, the strain of such a formal procedure might seriously aggravate his condition. In such a case the interests of the patient would be better served by an informal procedure than by a formal one.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 84, lines 26, at end insert: (cc) for regulating the circumstances in which, and the persons by whom, applicants and patients in respect of whom applications are made to a tribunal may, if not desiring to conduct their own case, be represented for the purposes of those applications;

Mr. Walker-Smith

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment makes it clear that the Lord Chancellor has power under these rules to provide for the representation of patients or other applicants at the tribunal. We discussed this during the Committee stage, and indeed, it was one of the points dealt with in an Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Dr. Johnson). We have met this point in an appropriately flexible way by this provision which I now commend to the House.

The Amendment allows provision to be made for formal representation only if the applicant does not wish to conduct his own case. It will still be possible for the rules to provide for the patient who does prefer to conduct his own case to be assisted informally by a friend, but the rules can now provide for representation when the case is disposed of informally, as well as when the formal procedure is invoked.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 84, line 27, at beginning insert: for regulating the methods by which information relevant to an application may be obtained by or furnished to the tribunal, and in particular".

Mr. Walker-Smith

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

The object of this Amendment is to remove any possible doubt that might otherwise exist as to the Lord Chancellor's powers to make suitable rules to enable the tribunal to obtain all the information which it requires by suitable methods. I referred to this during the Committee stage, and told the Committee that we envisaged that the tribunals will not only receive written reports, but will arrange formal hearings if requested by the applicants. They will also be able to visit hospitals and interview patients, and indeed, any other person whom they wish to see in making any other inquiries which they think are necessary.

The hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) has had in mind a point about the position of relatives giving evidence, with the very proper object of preventing the possibility of tribunals discharging patients to the care of relatives when, in fact, for one reason or another, it is not appropriate or possible. It will, of course, be open to the relatives, and indeed, to any others who have any material information to give, to give their evidence in a formal procedure, or in some other way to bring their evidence and knowledge to the assistance of the tribunal.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 84, line 30, at end, insert: (dd) for making available to any applicant, and to any patient in respect of whom an application is made to a tribunal, copies of any documents obtained by or furnished to the tribunal in connection with the application, and a statement of the substance of any oral information so obtained or furnished except where the tribunal considers it undesirable in the interests of the patient or for other special reasons;

12.15 p.m.

Mr. Walker-Smith

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

The first paragraph of the Amendment, dealing with documents, makes it clear that the rules may provide for patients and other applicants to receive documents and any other information, including the substance of oral information obtained by or furnished to the tribunal. At the same time, it gives the tribunal the necessary discretion to withhold documents if it considers it desirable to do so in the interests of the patient, or for other special reasons.

The point of discretion derives from paragraph 448 of the Report of the Royal Commission, to which I drew attention at an earlier stage of the Bill. There is a precedent, in that a similar discretion, to withhold medical reports in cases where the tribunal considers it desirable in the interests of the applicant, is already enacted in the Pensions Appeals Tribunals Act, 1943. The Amendment, in effect, ensures that the Lord Chancellor can, in framing the rules, meet the substance of the point raised during the Committee stage about documents, while following the general principles which I then outlined to the Committee.

The other matter dealt with here in the second paragraph of the Amendment is the giving of reasons for the decision. This Amendment makes clear that the rules can require tribunals to furnish on request a statement of the reasons for their decision, while allowing such statements to be withheld from patients or other persons if it would be undesirable in the interests of the patient, his health, and so on, or for any other special reasons, such as possible embarrassment to the relatives or something similar.

Dr. Johnson

I should like to welcome this Amendment, and to express to my right hon. and learned Friend my appreciation of the consideration which he has given to the various arguments that have been advanced. The terms of the Amendment are almost identical with those of an Amendment which I put forward myself, with certain reservations. I see the necessity for them, and one only hopes that these reservations will not be abused and cannot be made excuses for hearings that might be unpleasant and inconvenient to the powers that be in these matters.

However, it is a very great advantage indeed to have the procedures written into the Bill. It will be a great comfort to the complaining patients to know their rights under the Bill, and also to those of us who may still, possibly, receive letters—I hope we shall not—from complaining patients. It will be a great advantage to be able to point to the fact that these procedures are there and that the patients have these rights.

There is only one very small point that I should like to make and that is in regard to what the Minister himself said in Committee and what the noble Viscount also said in another place. It is obviously the intention to make this as informal as possible. I do not quarrel with that, though I would point out that there are certain dangers in these informalities. In the first place, the tribunals visit the hospitals and see the patients there. One hopes that these visits will not become the type of cursory visits of which we had so many complaints under previous legislation concerning those whose duty it was to visit the hospitals.

We feel satisfied, I think, that we are making a new start with this legislation and with the new procedures. We are satisfied that we have got something which is workable and something on which we can reassure the complaining patients. I wish once again to express my appreciation to my right hon. and learned Friend for the consideration that he has given to our wishes.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.