HC Deb 24 February 1959 vol 600 cc929-32
23. Mr. Bence

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what percentage of out- standing debenture, unsecured loan, and preference stock in the Steel Company of Wales is held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency; and the average rate of interest.

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. F. J. Erroll)

All the debenture stock in the Steel Company of Wales, Limited, is held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency. The average rate of interest is 5⅝ per cent. The company has no unsecured loan or preference stock.

Mr. Bence

As the public, or the taxpayers, seem to own the whole of this plant, would not it be justifiable that the Agency should also get the equity stock, so that in addition to financing the job the taxpayers may have the profits?

Mr. Erroll

The Agency holds the prior charges and the investment public holds the ordinary shares, which seems a satisfactory arrangement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]

24. Mr. Bence

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what percentage of outstanding debenture, unsecured loan, and preference stock in Stewarts and Lloyds, Limited, is held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency; and the average rate of interest.

Mr. Erroll

All the preference shares and unsecured loan stock in Stewarts and Lloyds, Limited, are held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency. The average rate of interest is 5 per cent. The company has no debentures

Mr. Bence

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there are many people who feel that it is not cricket when private companies use resources provided entirely by the taxpayer, and the profitability arising from those resources, to attack the public when it is suggested that the public may have the equity stock as well?

Mr. Erroll

That is another question, but I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that ownership of ordinary shares makes one eligible to share the losses as well as the profits.

Mr. Jay

Are we to understand from the earlier answer given by the Economic Secretary that the Government have no intention of selling any of the debenture stock still held in the iron and steel industry?

Mr. Erroll

I should not like to say anything about the Government's intentions in this matter at the present time.

Mr. H. Morrison

Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the dividend on the equity or ordinary shares of this concern as compared with the 5 per cent. on the Government investment, and if it is more than the Government investment, why are the taxpayers left holding the sticky end of the stick?

Mr. Erroll

The advantage to a prior charge holder is, of course, that he receives the interest in good years and bad. Equity holders get a dividend in good years but nothing in bad years. I have not the figures for which the right hon. Gentleman asked but I shall be glad to send them to him, if he wishes.

25. Mr. Bence

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what percentage of outstanding debenture, unsecured loan, and preference stock in Colvilles, Limited, is held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency; and the average rate of interest thereon.

Mr. Erroll

All the preference share in Colvilles, Limited, are held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency; 62½ per cent. of the debenture stock is held by the Agency. The average rate of interest is 5 per cent. The company has no unsecured loan stock.

Mr. Bence

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that, with his usual canniness, the Scot is not prepared to finance this privately-owned concern—as is obvious from the figures which the hon. Gentleman has given to us—because he is afraid that most of his money will be thrown away on Tory propaganda?

Mr. Erroll

The fact is that after reorganisation no less than 10 million shares of a nominal value of £1 were sold to the public at a price of 26s. a share, which shows that the public were prepared to invest in this excellent company.

Mr. Gower

Is not it much more likely that the ordinary canny Scot, like other people in the British Isles, is more deterred by the Labour Party's threat to renationalise the industry?

Mr. Erroll

I agree with my hon. Friend. If the Labour Party would drop its renationalisation proposals, it would be a great help to the British iron and steel industry.

Mr. Mikardo

Will the hon. Gentleman say what capital gains have been made by the holders of the equity capital in this company since denationalisation?

Mr. Erroll

That is another question, and I will not attempt to answer it today.

Mr. H. Wilson

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw your attention to the fact that today is the first day on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has answered Questions in this House since 9th December, and on present form we shall not get Answers from him again until 21st April? In view of our right and duty to keep a Parliamentary control on finance, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to bear this in mind next time consideration is given to the rearrangement of Questions, so that the Chancellor may be available to the House more often than once every eight or ten weeks?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a matter for me, but no doubt what the right hon. Gentleman has said will receive consideration in the proper quarters.