§ 28. Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement concerning his discussions with the Building Societies Association on the discrimination made between men and women applicants for mortgages.
§ Mr. H. BrookeWith permission, I will answer this Question and Question No. 29 together.
§ Miss BurtonOn a point of order. These two Questions are quite different and I submit, with the greatest respect —I am not being difficult—that you will see, Mr. Speaker, on reflection, that I must withhold my permission to these replies being answered together.
§ Mr. SpeakerAccording to previous Rulings, I suggest that the hon. Lady might wait for the Answer, which might conceivably deal with both points, although she does not seem to be of that view at the moment.
§ Miss BurtonYou are the only hope of the back bencher in a matter like this, Mr. Speaker. The Answer will not be applicable to both Questions, because the second one raises an entirely different matter from the first. I have a supplementary question which I wish to put on the first Question. If the Questions are answered together, will you allow me to put a supplementary question on each aspect?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Lady will appreciate that I have not heard the Answer and I have no idea what it is. When I have heard the Answer I will be able to deal with the hon. Lady's point.
§ Mr. J. HyndFurther to that point of order. May I ask what is meant by the preamble used by the Minister, when he asks for permission to answer both Questions together? With the permission of whom?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is a courteous phrase, to which I have no reason to object. It is reasonable that one should listen to the Answer before one forms one's opinion about it. Mr. Brooke.
§ Miss BurtonI am really not an awkward person, so far as you are concerned, Mr. Speaker, but I do withhold this permission. The Questions are not related at all, so I ask you to allow on this occasion each Question to be answered separately.
§ Mr. BrookeI am always ready to please a lady, if I can. I will gladly read out the first paragraph of my Answer, in answer to the hon. Lady's first Question, and the second paragraph in reply to her second Question. The reply to the first Question therefore is:
Representatives of the Building Societies Association have suggested—and I welcome this—that the agreement to be signed by building societies before they may receive Government money should provide that mortgages will be granted under the scheme without distinction of sex. All societies participating in the scheme will be required to sign the same agreement, whether or not they are members of the Building Societies Association.
§ Miss BurtonThat sounds very agreeable. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that is anything different from what we had before? Is he aware that the building societies issued a statement recently which received great publicity, saying that a male guarantor would not be required and had not been required in the past? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that statement is flagrantly untrue? I say that deliberately. Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that to say that something does not exist which has been proved is not even intelligent? Would the right hon. Gentleman let us know whether he proposes to agree to the Amendment that we put down recently on the Committee stage of the Bill, or whether the Building Societies Association is merely trying, under the 943 cloak of another reply, to get out of committing itself?
§ Mr. BrookeNo, Sir. I advised the Committee to reject the Amendment, which would make trustee status for building societies dependent on whether or not they ask for male guarantors for women applicants. I have fulfilled the undertaking I gave to the House to have further discussion with the Building Societies Association and, as the result of that, the Association has suggested that the agreement which building societies participating in the scheme shall sign shall provide that mortgages will be granted under the scheme without discrimination Of sex. I thought that was exactly what the hon. Lady wanted.
§ Mr. MitchisonWhat will happen to a building society which does not adhere to the undertaking?
§ Mr. BrookeI would refer the hon. and learned Member to the terms of the Bill.
§ Mr. MitchisonThe Bill does not mention the scheme or say anything about it. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what will happen to a building society if it does not keep to the undertaking?
§ Mr. BrookeThat goes beyond the scope of the Question.
§ 29. Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs which societies, outside the Building Societies Association, are eligible to participate in the Government loan scheme of mortgage lendings; to what extent conditions applying to members of the Building Societies Association will be relevant in their case; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. H. BrookeI cannot say whether a society will be eligible to participate in the scheme until it has been designated by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies, under what is now Clause I of the House Purchase and Housing Bill.
§ Miss BurtonIs the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say whether the Halifax Building Society will not be able to take part in this scheme because it does not belong to the Association? Is he aware that I asked this Question because I have had more complaints about the Halifax 944 and its sex discrimination than about any other building society and that the complaints condemn the practice that it is carrying out?
§ Mr. BrookeI specified my views during the Committee stage of the Bill. I am not told in advance whether the Halifax or any other particular building society will wish to sign an agreement of the kind indicated. That depends in the first instance obviously on the society.