Clause 18.—(FEES CHARGEABLE BY BUILDINGS AUTHORITIES.) (Hansard, 11 February 1959)

§ Mr. Hannan
I beg to move, in page 19, to leave out line 20 and to insert: determined by the local authority". We are here dealing with the fees chargeable by the buildings authorities. Clause 18 (1) says: A buildings authority may, in respect of such of their business as may be prescribed, charge such fees as may be prescribed in relation thereto. The Amendment is designed to delete the latter words so that the end of that sentence would read: fees as may he determined by the local authority". I confess at once that we have put down this Amendment to elicit information. If the action suggested in the Amendment commends itself to the Government, we should be very pleased to have their support. As we understand, the building authority will have certain fees to charge. The building authorities are not uniform throughout the country. In many cases, it is the local authority, and in some the dean of guild court, which will have premises and so forth provided in accordance, I think it is, with the Second Schedule. In our view, the local authority, by virtue of its providing such accommodation, should be the body to determine the fees.
It is true that subsection (2) says: 'Any fees received by a buildings authority … shall be paid by them to the local authority. I think that the Government have an Amendment to subsection (1) which will be considered next. In the meantime, dealing with our Amendment to subsection (1), we should like to know what are the reasons for saying that these fees should not be determined by the local authority, collected by the building authority, and transferred back to the local body. As I understand it, the Second Schedule defines the local authorities which have not dean of guild courts and lays down their powers. What about local authorities which have dean of guild courts? What is the procedure there at the moment? Does not this Amendment commend itself to the Government?

§ Mr. Woodburn
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Mr. J. N. Browne
It is a little difficult to discuss this Amendment apart from the Amendment put down by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, in line 20, at the end to insert: and different fees may be prescribed for different buildings authorities". I will, however, deal with the point which the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) has made. We believe that it would be wrong to allow, as his Amendment would, every local authority to fix its own scale of fees for its building authority, and I do not think that the hon. Gentleman himself would, on reflection, wish it.

§ Mr. Hannan
The hon. Gentleman has suggested that I would not agree that different local authorities should arrange their own scale of fees. I have in mind the Government Amendment to provide that different fees may be prescribed for different buildings authorities". Does that meet the point?

§ Mr. Browne
Would it be with your approval, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and for the convenience of the House, if we discussed this Amendment with my right hon. Friend's Amendment?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
I think that it would be for the convenience of the House to discuss the two together.

§ Mr. Browne
My right hon. Friend's Amendment would clarify the situation. As amended, subsection (1) would now read: A buildings authority may, in respect of such of their business as may be prescribed, charge such fees as may he prescribed in relation thereto, and different fees may be prescribed for different buildings authorities. It is next provided by subsection (2), if it be amended as proposed, that Any fees received by a buildings authority by virtue of this section by a buildings authority to whom section three hundred and twenty-eight of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947, refers"— that is to say, the burghs— or any corresponding provision of a local Act "— that is, Edinburgh, Perth, Rutherglen and Paisley, but not Glasgow— or paragraph 11 of the Second Schedule to this Act applies"— that is, the counties and Aberdeen and Dundee— shall be paid by them to the local authority. 1271 The second part, in effect, says that every building authority but Glasgow pays over its fees to the local authority, but my right hon. Friend can prescribe separate fees for separate authorities. That, basically, covers the position in Glasgow where the fees are slightly higher than elsewhere.
I come now to the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Maryhill. He suggests that there is nothing wrong in the building authority fixing its own fees. The Guest Committee was a little critical of the present method of charging fees. We believe that it should and could be simplified. In the interests of every builder in Scotland, we want to achieve a state of affairs where more or less uniform fees are charged for more or less uniform service.
Taking the service, first, I think it is right that my right hon. Friend should, in consultation with all concerned, decide which services are chargeable and, having agreed a list of services so that all the builders know where they are, he has to consider whether there shall be one or more scales of fees applicable to Scotland as a whole, except Glasgow. That is something which he will undoubtedly discuss with the local authorities concerned.
There is nothing sacrosanct in the idea of one scale or the idea that one type of local authority should not charge a different scale, but it would be wise that the fees should be all on the same basis. The hon. Gentleman will see that we have met him to some extent, but, if we were to accept his Amendment, we could reach a stage where every local authority would be able to fix its own scale of charges and its own items for which charging could be done. The result would be somewhat similar to the chaotic situation today where, if one builds in one part of the country, one does not know exactly what the situation is as compared with another part. We want the maximum degree of uniformity.
We must also bear in mind that, under the Bill as it stands, if a local authority does not want to charge the fees as prescribed it does not have to do so. It can make no charge at all; there is nothing against making no charge and bearing the whole cost on the rates. What we do not want, however, is a large number of 1272 differing rates in various parts of Scotland.

§ Mr. Hannan
The Amendment refers to … a buildings authority to whom section three hundred and twenty-eight of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947, or any corresponding provision of a local Act, or paragraph 11 of the Second Schedule to this Act applies. The Amendment is inexplicable to me. I believe that the Joint Under-Secretary has the answer, but I do not think that there is a Section 11 in the Second Schedule. Is that the answer?
How is paragraph 11 related to the Amendment? Paragraph 11 reads: The local authority shall provide such accommodation, and such furniture, books and other things, as is required for the transaction of the business of the buildings authority, and shall pay any expenses of the authority. Section 328 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act provides that: The town council shall provide such accommodation, with furniture, books and other things". and pay salaries with certain exceptions. What are the exceptions? Can the Joint Under-Secretary reply to that point?

§ Mr. J. N. Browne
I could not, offhand, reply to the hon. Gentleman's last question, but I appreciate his confusion. The difficulty is that we have to refer to Glasgow without actually mentioning it by name. The position is that only in Glasgow does the building authority or dean of guild court not pay any money to the local authority. Subsection (2) reads: Any fees received by … a buildings authority by virtue of this Section shall be paid by them to the local authority". Which are the fees to be paid? The reference in the 1947 Act covers all the 1273 burghs. The reference to the corresponding provisions of a local act covers all the dean of guild courts which will act as building authorities, and I assure the hon. Members, because I have investigated this matter, that one could not refer to Glasgow as being covered by a corresponding provision of a local Act because Glasgow does not depend on any local Act for the existence of its dean of guild court.
The Second Schedule refers to the counties and Aberdeen and Dundee and as under the Second Schedule the counties pay all the expenses of the authority so under this subsection the authorities pay all the fees to the counties. [An HON. MEMBER: "A wangle".] It is not a wangle. It is a nice piece of drafting.