HC Deb 05 February 1959 vol 599 cc721-3

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. MacColl

I am not certain whether the point I warm to raise should be raised on this Clause or at a later stage. Possibly my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) will prompt me if I am raising it in the wrong place.

I am concerned about the question of the leasehold interest. We are in this Clause reducing the term of years of the remainder of long leases, and, therefore, we are providing for improvement grants at the expense of the lessee and at the public expense, when a larger share of the benefit will come to the lessor since the reversion will fall in more quickly.

I shall not, at this time of the night, attempt to move in the treacherous ground over which my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) and my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-west (Mr. Janner) moved so surely, namely, the treacherous ground of leaseholds generally. Nevertheles, whatever the rights of the lessor at the end of a long lease to have the benefit of improvements to the property, and so forth, there is no case for his having the benefit of public money.

If a grant has been made to the lessee, who is the person who has paid the cost of the improvement and provision of amenities, public money having been provided for that purpose, it would really be monstrous if it were possible for the lessor, when the reversion falls in, then to turn round to the lessee and say, "You have a nice bath in the house now and I am going to renew the lease at a much higher rent."

Mr. Janner

indicated assent.

Mr. MacColl

I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West follows the point I am making.

It is not a simple point, I agree, but there ought to be some provision in the Bill whereby, if public money is used by way of subsidy for amenities, the lessor should not be able to take advantage of that when he comes to negotiate new terms for a lease with the lessee, or, indeed, with any subsequent lessee. That would seem to be giving the sanctity of public support to a system which, at any rate, is the subject of much controversy and would cause very definite injustice. I raise the point now because I am not sure whether it is something which can be dealt with by amendment. I hope that the Minister will give it some thought between now and the Report stage.

Mr. H. Brooke

All I can do is to say that I will carefully study in HANSARD what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) has said. I find it extremely hard to relate it to this Clause, and I am quite sure that I could not say anything positive and material in reply to him on this Clause without going beyond the bounds of order. I admire his ingenuity in bringing up the point this evening. I shall consider what he has said, but I cannot say in advance what conclusion I shall reach upon it.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

11.15 p.m.

Mr. H. Brooke

We have not made as much progress as I would have hoped this evening, but we have now completed 10 Clauses and it is a quarter past eleven. I believe there is an understanding that if we do not sit too late tonight it will be possible for the Government to complete the Bill in another day, without sitting unreasonably late on that day. If that is the understanding I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."

Mr. Mitchison

The Minister said that he hoped to get the Bill through, but no doubt he means through the Committee stage.

Mr. Brooke

indicated assent.

Mr. Mitchison

All I can say is that I will do my best to help him in attaining the object that he has suggested. I cannot go further than that.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.