HC Deb 29 April 1959 vol 604 cc1397-9
Mr. Speaker

I think that the next two Amendments, in page 10, line 4, and in page 10, line 7, are consequential upon what has already been said. Does the right hon. Gentleman move the first of them?

Mr. Maclay

I beg to move, in page 10, line 4, at the beginning to insert: Subject to section thirty-three of this Act

Mr. Charles Doughty (Surrey, East)

I hesitate to intervene in this debate, which is going so fast, but I want some clarification about these words. If one looks at Clause 23, though I know that it would be subject to the provisions of Clause 33, one finds that it provides that: Any person who takes or wilfully kills deer between the expiration"— and so forth. What do those words mean? I am asking merely for some clarification. Can the Lord Advocate help us on that?

Mr. Maclay

It was intended to move these Amendments formally because the whole effect of Section 33 will be discussed when we reach the Government Amendment to Clause 33. I think it would be very difficult to deal with the matter piecemeal.

Mr. Doughty

It would not be difficult at all. Clause 33 deals with certain exceptions, and I am talking about the rules. The rules are laid down in Clause 23, not Clause 31 Clause 23 provides: Any person who takes or wilfully kills deer and so on. I do not know what that means.

Mr. T. Fraser

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to interrupt the hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) if he is in order, but it seems to me that if he is now asking for an explanation of the words of subsection (1) of the Clause he is not in order in asking for that explanation. We have before us an Amendment which merely seeks to put in the words: Subject to section thirty-three of this Act". Incidentally, the Amendment is one of a series of Amendments which were taken altogether, all the discussion, we understood, taking place on the first one.

Mr. Doughty

If the hon. Gentleman wants me to deal with it at greater length, I will do so with pleasure. If he looks at Clause 33, he will see that subsection (1) provides: A person shall not be guilty of any offence…in respect of any act done for the prevention of suffering by an injured or diseased deer and there are other matters which are allowed as exceptions to Clause 23.

I want to know what Clause 23 means. If one is to have an exception to that Clause, one must know what the Clause means. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in my submission, I am perfectly in order in asking this question. Perhaps the Lord Advocate will deal with the matter and say what Clause 23 means before we consider the exceptions to it.

Mr. Speaker

I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is putting the House in some difficulty. These Amendments were explained en bloc by the Secretary of State for Scotland at an earlier stage when I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman was here. The House agreed to the first one as typifying a number of them. I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has really missed his opportunity of raising this matter.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Speaker

Does the Secretary of State move the Amendment in page 10, line 7, which is, I think, one of the ones previously referred to?

Mr. Maclay

I beg to move, in page 10, line 7, at the beginning to insert: Subject to section thirty-three of this Act".

Amendment agreed to.

The Lord Advocate

I beg to move, in page 10, line 17, to leave out from "imprisonment" to the end of line 21.

This is another case in which we find it unnecessary to press for conviction on indictment. It is unnecessary, we think, in Clause 23.

Amendment agreed to.