HC Deb 25 November 1958 vol 596 cc219-22
47. Mr. Woodburn

asked the Prime Minister whether he will propose an amendment to Standing Order No. 105 to ensure that the power of the House to exclude strangers should be extended to permit of the House by appropriate Resolution re-admitting strangers during the same sitting.

51. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Prime Minister whether he will move to amend the Standing Orders in order to ensure that during the proceedings of the House the Official Reporters will always be available unless a demand for a secret session is made and agreed to.

The Prime Minister

I think that these are matters which might well be considered by the Select Committee on Procedure.

Mr. Woodburn

Is it not strange that this House, which is all-powerful, should find itself tied by one decision it cannot alter immediately? Surely it should be made possible for the House to reverse a decision with the same facility that it makes a decision?

The Prime Minister

The House is bound by its own Standing Orders. Whether hon. Members make appeals to the Standing Orders wisely or unwisely is not my affair.

Mr. Shinwell

Does the Prime Minister's reply to my right hon. Friend mean that he intends to refer this matter to the Select Committee on Procedure? If so, or if not, who would be responsible for moving the reference? May we be assured that we may have a reply very shortly?

The Prime Minister

I do not think I have any right to arrogate to myself the right to refer the matter to the Committee on Procedure. I hope that it will go to the Committee, but how exactly, by what mystical method, I do not know. But I think the House would resent it were I to take upon myself to refer particular matters to the Committee.

Dame Florence Horsbrugh

Is it not the case that, under the existing Standing Orders, our proceedings have been conducted quite well for very many years and that the procedure becomes unsatisfactory only if an hon. Member becomes so irresponsible as to be willing to lower the prestige of this House?

Mr. H. Morrison

Does not the Prime Minister think that if the House makes a decision that strangers withdraw it has to put up with the consequences? On this occasion, whatever may be said about my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) and his Parliamentary larks, was it not the case that this procedure would have worked perfectly well had not the Government Front Bench and their supporters been asleep?

The Prime Minister

I do not know what line the Committee on Procedure will take, but I can conceive that it might be regarded as reasonable that notice should be given.

Mr. Shinwell

Is not the right hon. Gentleman leaving the matter in some ambiguous condition? Is he unable to say how the matter would reach the Committee on Procedure? Does it require a Motion? If a Motion is put on the Order Paper, will the Leader of the House find time for it? How is this to be done?

The Prime Minister

As I say, I do not think it my duty to do so, and I think the House would resent it if I arrogated to myself the right to make particular recommendations to the Committee on Procedure. I have reason to believe that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is to give evidence before the Committee, and it occurs to me it is quite possible that either he or members of Committee may raise this matter in their discussions.

Sir R. Grimston

Would it not be perfectly in order and possible for the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shin-well) to submit a memorandum to the Committee?

Mr. Shinwell

I should be delighted to do so.

Mr. Speaker

Dame Irene Ward, Question No. 49.

Mr. Wigg

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand from my hon. Friends that you did call me by name—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If that is so, may I be allowed to put my supplementary question, particularly in view of the fact that I have been referred to by the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh)?

Mr. Speaker

I did try to call the hon. Member, but I was intercepted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). However, on reflection, I did hear the hon. Member's name mentioned by a right hon. Lady and by a right hon. Gentleman, and I think that the hon. Member should be allowed to ask his supplementary question.

Mr. Wigg

My question is a simple one. If the right hon. Gentleman is concerned about the question of irresponsibility, would he be good enough to consult the Leader of the House to ascertain whether a course of instruction should be given to him and, possibly, to members of the Government Front Bench as to the whereabouts of the indices in the Standing Orders? Is not the index for Private Business at the end of the Standing Orders and the index for the Public Business in the middle, and should we not find that the incident last week arose because I exercised the only right left to back benchers to force a Division?

The Prime Minister

I have noticed rather right-wing tendencies in the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) lately, and if this goes any further perhaps he would like to come and help us on this side of the House.