Conference (Hansard, 14 May 1958)

§ 27. Mr. Wigg
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the Royal Air Force conference, "Prospect II," which took place on 6th May, was held with his authority; and whether he will make a statement.

§ 28. Mr. Mason
asked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent the recent speeches of Sir Dermot Boyle and other Royal Air Force officers at the Royal Empire Society's Hall represent Government policy on the future of the Royal Air Force; whether he will make a statement about the future of the Royal Air Force, particularly regarding the possibilities of the supersonic bomber and another supersonic fighter to follow the English Electric P.1; and to what extent the Royal Air Force is making plans for space flying.

Mr. Ward
The conference was held with the authority of the Minister of Defence and myself. Nothing said at the conference should be interpreted as indicating any divergence from the Government's policy for the Royal Air Force, as set out in recent Defence White Papers and statements to Parliament.

§ Mr. Wigg
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he and the Minister of Defence concur in the view expressed by Marshal of the Royal Air Force Lord Tedder, when he said that if there was not 399 another V-bomber on the drawing board at the moment, it was unlikely that there would be one in ten years' time? Further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the evidence given at the inquiry in the United States into the satellites and missile programme, where it was stated on the highest authority that there will be a requirement for a manned bomber and interceptor for at least fifteen years, and is not that statement in contradiction with the policy announced in the last two White Papers?

Mr. Ward
I really do not think that arises out of the Question, which asks me whether the conference was held with my authority.

§ Mr. Mason
Would the right hon. Gentleman give a reply to the second half of my original Question about the future of the supersonic bomber and fighter and the interest of the Royal Air Force in space flight? Secondly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of us, on this side of the House anyway, think they obviously flouted official defence policy at the "Prospect" conference, and is not this a dangerous trend? Further, does not the right hon. Gentleman himself regret the fact that it is apt to bring into the open the battle which has been taking place behind the scenes between himself and the Minister of Defence about the future of R.A.F. policy, and should not he himself regret bringing into the open public statements of Marshals of the Royal Air Force to help him in his task?

Mr. Ward
The policy regarding the aircraft which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned is clearly laid down in the White Papers dealing with Defence and the Air Estimates Memorandum. Anything else that was mentioned, as the Prime Minister made clear yesterday, dealt with a speculative field many years ahead. Finally, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no divergence of opinion whatever between my right hon. Friend and myself.

Dr. Bennett
Is not it a fact that the indignation which has been somewhat belatedly whipped up about this conference was made possible only by the synthesising of a whole lot of replies at a sort of question time, replies to questions generally directed to the usefulness or otherwise of any weapon, the questions 400 coming one after another? Have not all these been put together in order to generate a case which is very tenuous?

§ Mr. Shinwell
As there seems to be some confusion about this matter, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Air Marshals, including the Chief of Air Staff, were in favour of the production of a manned supersonic bomber for several years to come? In order to clear up the matter to the satisfaction of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, and if there were an all-party demand for a meeting in one of the Committee Rooms upstairs, say Room 14, would there be any objection to the Royal Air Force Marshals coming to address hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the subject?

Mr. Ward
Let me make it clear that the Chief of the Air Staff and also the rest of the Air Staff are, completely and absolutely, loyal supporters of the Government's defence policy. They have in no way disagreed with that policy as laid down. The important thing to remember is the time scale in this matter and the special circumstances which the Prime Minister made clear yesterday.

§ Mr. de Freitas
Do the Government intend to order another manned bomber?

Mr. Ward
We have already announced to the House that industry is now making a study of a possible replacement for the Canberra.

§ Mr. S. Silverman
In view of the Prime Minister's statement yesterday, that all of the statements made at the conference were based on the hypothesis that ballistic missiles would find some means of defence, and his further statement, that there is at present no such defence and that no one expects that in the near future there will be, was not the whole of this adventure rather an enterprise in the realm of science fiction? Therefore, was its expense justified?

Mr. Ward
Certainly it was not an adventure in the realm of science fiction. It is our duty constantly to peer ahead, and some way ahead, and to try to see what changed circumstances might arise in the far future.

§ Mr. Wigg
On a point of order. I beg to give notice that, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I shall seek an opportunity 401 of raising this matter on the Adjournment, not to impugn the honour of distinguished officers, whom I certainly respect, but to impugn the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

§ 29. Mr. Fernyhough
asked the Secretary of State for Air the names of the persons authorised by him to write the sketches presented to the Royal Air Force conference held on Tuesday, 6th May, 1958.

Mr. Ward
The sketches were prepared within the Air Ministry.

§ Mr. Fernyhough
In view of the excellent Press which these sketches have enjoyed and the widespread public interest which they have aroused, will the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements for the authors and actors to present these sketches in, say, Westminster Hall, so that hon. Members may be able better to appreciate whether the reflections made upon them were true?

Mr. Ward
No, I am afraid that this is not a twice-nightly performance.

Dr. Bennett
Will my right hon. Friend convey to those concerned the congratulations of many hon. Members on the skill of the writing of the sketches and upon their performance?

§ 30. Mr. Fernyhough
asked the Secretary of State for Air the purpose of the Royal Air Force conference held on Tuesday, 6th May; and how much it cost.

Mr. Ward
The purpose was explained yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Extra expenditure was about £260.

§ Mr. Fernyhough
In view of the hullabaloo which has followed the conference, does the right hon. Gentleman think that the expenditure was justified, and can he say whether his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence shares that opinion?

Mr. Ward
Judging by the number of appreciative opinions which I have received, I should have thought that it was cheap at the price.

§ Mr. Strachey
Can the Secretary of State explain how almost the entire Press of this country received the impression that the purpose of the conference was to press the view that another generation 402 of manned aircraft should immediately be developed? Is not that view in distinct contradiction to that given us by the Minister of Defence and other Government spokesmen? If this was not the case, can the right hon. Gentleman take steps to get this widespread misapprehension cleared up?

Mr. Ward
The Press is free, and I hope always will be free, to place any interpretation it wishes on what is said in public. I have been trying, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister tried yesterday, to explain the correct interpretation to the House. I ask hon. Members to remember that it was not easy to condense into one day a conference which had taken three days at Cranwell.

§ 31. Mr. Short
asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will arrange for conferences similar to "Prospect II" to be held annually.

Mr. Ward
No, Sir. I do not think it would necessarily be desirable to hold such conferences at regular annual intervals.

§ Mr. Short
In view of the controversy which has arisen over this conference, will the right hon. Gentleman consider inviting all hon. Members to attend future conferences? In order to clear up the present controversy, will he consider putting a verbatim report of this year's conference in the Library, so that hon. Members who were not present can judge for themselves?

Mr. Ward
I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman enjoyed the conference, but I do not think that it is something which one wants to do every year? The actual verbatim record of the conference will take some time to compile, but what I can do, and will be prepared to do fairly quickly, is to put in the Library the scripts of the various presentations.

§ Mr. Shinwell
If the recent conference served a useful purpose, and that is the opinion of the Government, why not have an annual conference, or a biennial conference or a six-monthly conference, and open it to everybody in the House, instead of confining it to a few people who attended because of the patronage of the Whips on both sides?

§ Mr. Mason
On a point of order. In view of the fact that the paper floating round the House is causing a great deal of discussion on the back benches and has been referred to by one of my right hon. Friends, would not it be wise to lay it on the Table, so that we can all see it?

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not understand the hon. Member's point of order.

§ Mr. Mason
A great deal of discussion is taking place on the back benches because of a document which has been referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who has since handed it to the Government Chief Whip. Would not it be wise and sensible at this stage, in view of the controversy that it is causing, for it to be laid on the Table so that we can all be made aware of its contents?

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not know what the document is. I could not give a direction about an unknown piece of paper like that.

§ Mr. Rankin
Further to that point of order——

§ Mr. Speaker
There is no point of order.

§ Mr. Rankin
Further to that point of order——

§ Mr. Speaker
There is no point of order. The hon. Member was proposing to speak further to a non-existent point of order. He cannot do that.

§ Mr. Rankin
On a point of order. May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker? How is it possible to judge my point of order before it is heard?

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member did not say that. He said it was "further to the point of order". I had just ruled that there was no point of order. The hon. Member cannot speak further to something that does not exist.

§ Mr. Rankin
This is a new point of order. May we ask that the document which is now here, in the hands of the Chief Patronage Secretary, should be laid with the other papers which are to be laid by the Secretary of State for Air——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. There is no point of order in that. The hon. Member ought to know that.

§ Mr. Wigg
On a point of order. The document referred to is a private letter addressed to me. While I have no objection to its being tabled, I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who borrowed it, might have consulted me.

§ Mr. Speaker
It is an unknown piece of paper as far as I am concerned.