HC Deb 07 May 1958 vol 587 cc1365-8
Mr. H. Brooke

I beg to move in page 55, line 9, at the end to insert: (3) At least one of the members of the Local Government Commission for Wales shall be a person able to speak the Welsh language. It has always been the intention of the Government that at least one member of the Local Government Commission for Wales should be Welsh-speaking. In Committee, I was asked to write this provision into the Bill and this Amendment fulfils that pledge. My only regret, Mr. Speaker is that under a recent Ruling of yours, no hon. Member will be able here and now to prove his prima facie qualification.

Mr. Tudor Watkins (Brecon and Radnor)

It would be ungenerous of the Welsh Members if they did not accept with great willingness the Amendment that-the right hon. Gentleman has moved, but I would remind him that this is the last part of an Amendment I moved in Committee. However, as far as my researches go, this is the first time that it has been laid down that one member of a Welsh body must be Welsh-speaking, so I think it is a great victory, and I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

Without wishing to be ungenerous, I have one or two points to put to the Minister. For instance, if the maximum number of members on the Commission is to be seven, I think that the right hon. Gentleman should do his best to get more than one Welsh-speaking member on it. Any difficulty about a quorum could be got over, perhaps, if either the chairman or the deputy-chairman were Welsh-speaking. In no circumstances should the Commission hold its proceedings in a Welsh-speaking area without a Welsh-speaking member being present. I know that the Minister cannot give a categorical assurance, but if a memorandum of guidance is to be sent out that point could be included.

The same point arises in relation to delegated powers. It would be wise for the Minister to give an assurance that among those to whom those vital powers are delegated at least one should be Welsh-speaking.

My last point is this. The Minister was good enough to mention a period of five years in the case of the English Commission. Can he say whether he has any idea how long the Welsh Commission will take in its proceedings? I should think it will take a much shorter time than the English Commission.

On behalf of the strong contingent of Welsh Members who are present at this hour of the night, I should like to say that we are the only section of the Committee who obtained concessions from the Minister throughout its 31 sittings, and we are very proud of that fact. For the first time it has been declared that Monmouthshire is part of Wales, without any qualifications at all, and Wales is to be excluded from conurbations. We are grateful to the Minister for that.

In addition, we have been told—indeed, it is provided in Clause 42—that there is to be no alteration to the boundaries of England and Wales, and no Commission dare do anything about it. Therefore, we have won a great victory.

Sir Charles Taylor (Eastbourne)

I should like to ask my right hon. Friend one question. Will it not be very difficult for the one member of the Commission who speaks Welsh to carry on a conversation in Welsh with the other members of the Commission?

Mr. G. Thomas

He speaks English as well.

Mr. H. Brooke

First of all, I am very sorry that I was not able to accept in Committee the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins). As I explained to him, it was not quite right, just as the other Amendment to which the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) referred was not quite right. It was not quite right because he got the "ands" in the wrong place.

I want to assure all hon. Members for Wales and Monmouthshire that it is, in the Government's view, most important that this Commission, when it is operating either as a whole or by the system of delegation in a Welsh-speaking area, shall have present somebody who is familiar with the Welsh language, because I attach great importance to those local authorities which normally conduct their business in Welsh being able to put their case to the Commission in their own language. I will certainly do all that I can to secure that that happens and give the Commission guidance in that respect.

For my part, I shall be very happy indeed if we can appoint more than one Welsh-speaking member. I want this to be a Commission of a genuinely Welsh character, well qualified to give advice on Welsh matters. Above all, it is the quality of the membership which is going to produce the best results, and if we did not have at least one Welsh-speaking member, clearly we should be seriously at fault.

I hope the hon. Member will not tempt me into questions of the status of Monmouthshire, because there we really should have to go back to Clause 17, which would be a mistake at this time of night.

Amendment agreed to.