HC Deb 07 May 1958 vol 587 cc1330-8
Mr. H. Brooke

I beg to move, in page 16, line 16, to leave out "county boroughs" and to insert: boroughs (whether county or non-county)". This Amendment is linked with those in page 19, lines 2 and 3. All three together are purely of a clarifying character. There has been some doubt about the meaning of some of the words in Clause 18. I am advised that there was no doubt what the words meant, but I think that if these Amendments are made the meaning will be plainer.

Mr. James MacColl (Widnes)

It would be a pity to let this occasion pass without expressing some appreciation to the right hon. Gentleman for having at any rate stood on the path of greatness. I do not go so far as to say that he has travelled very far along that path, but he has at any rate gone so far as to admit that it is possible that somebody might misunderstand something which he has put in the Bill and which he defended with such vigour in Standing Committee. I welcome the Amendment because it effects an improvement in the drafting of the Bill and makes it easier for people to understand the process whereby two non-county boroughs can reach the status of a county borough.

I would mention just one other point. As the right hon. Gentleman has gone so far, I am not quite clear why he has stopped where he has. What is the position of a non-county borough and some other type of district council which wish to achieve county borough status, when a non-county borough and an urban district council—it might be a rural district council—are prepared to perform the same happy operation as two non-county boroughs which wish to fructify into a county borough? How would they do it?

Mr. H. Brooke

I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is covered by Clause 18. I do not think he would wish me to go into all the details, but, as he will remember, Clause 18 empowers the Commission to propose any changes which can be produced by means set out in paragraphs (a) to (e) or by any combination of the means. If the hon. Gentleman examines the provision carefully I think he will find that there will be no obstacle to what he desires being achieved.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. H. Brooke

I beg to move, in page 16, line 25, at the end to insert: (f) the inclusion of the Isles of Scilly. as one or more county districts, in an administrative county. This Amendment is linked with the next Amendment, in Clause 23, page 19, line 2, to leave out "(e)" and insert "(f),

These two Amendments deal exclusively with the Isles of Scilly, a very important place, but one with a unique form of local government structure, which, as the Bill is at present drafted, would be outside the purview of the Commission. The Council of the Isles of Scilly made representations some months ago that they would like to be within the purview so that the Commission could consider some of their local government problems. It seemed right that that request should be granted, and the sole purpose of these Amendments is to make sure that it is granted.

These Amendments are not to be taken as in any way pre-judging the question whether there should be any change in the status of the Isles of Scilly, and the Government are not proposing this Amendment because they wish to bias the Commission in any way regarding the Isles of Scilly. We simply want to make sure that if it seems appropriate that the problem of the Isles of Scilly should be looked at by the Commission, the Commission will not find itself acting ultra vires if it so proceeds.

Mr. Sparks

Are any other isles left out from the Bill, apart from the Isles of Scilly?

Mr. Brooke

I think not.

Mr. G. R. Howard (St. Ives)

I am glad that my right hon. Friend said what he did about not prejudging the question, and I am glad to know that this Amendment does not mean, as the words on the Paper rather incline one to think, that there is any threat of a merger of the Council of the Isles of Scilly in the County Council of Cornwall. For reasons which I will enumerate as quickly as possible, that would be a fatal mistake.

My right hon. Friend has said that this is a unique case, as indeed it is, but, unfortunately, the attitude of all Governments has been that one cannot make exceptions. On one occasion, we were compared with the Isle of Wight, and what I said on that occasion need not detain the House on this. We are always told that exceptions cannot be made until we find that an exception is made to our disadvantage, such as the exception made by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General.

My right hon. Friend has made excellent innovations in the telephone services, and over large areas of the United Kingdom there have been very considerable reductions in the telephone charges. Anyone who looks at the map of West Cornwall will see that the line is carefully drawn round Land's End and that the Isles of Scilly are excluded. In other words, it is "Heads you win, tails I lose" every time. Although my right hon. Friend did give us a small concession of about 3d. on calls, this cannot in any way be compared with the service on the mainland and the reductions there.

The fact that the islands are unique in the local government system was recognised by the passing of an Act of Parliament at the end of the last century making them into a form of county council area. If they were merged into the county of Cornwall, their representation would, as anyone having experience of local government will realise, be a minority one. People would listen to what our representatives had to say, but they would not get very far with much hope of success in that county council. There are other difficulties. How would they get to meetings? There are extra health costs which fall upon unfortunate people in the islands if they have to go to the mainland for special treatment; if they are stretcher cases they are taken care of, but if not, they have to pay for themselves. Would that fall upon the County of Cornwall? I can assure my right hon. Friend that the County of Cornwall does not want it and views with a great deal of fear the possibility of it ever happening.

In education, there are all kinds of special aspects which I will not go into now. It is regrettable that no one from Her Majesty's Government has ever been to visit us, with the exception of one hon. Gentleman who came, who was, unfortunately, so incapacitated by sea-sickness that his visit was cut and he was not able to visit all the islands, through no fault of his own. Apart from him, no one has come. Over and over again, we have asked for someone to come; we have invited the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary, but without success.

Mr. G. Thomas

George Tomlinson went.

Mr. Howard

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned the late and very respected Member of the House, the right hon. George Tomlinson. I was just going to mention him. He came down to the islands when he was dying of an incurable disease. He went round every single one, and I went with him. Under the 1944 Act, it was laid down that, in the Isles of Scilly, we had to build asphalt playgrounds. This was a perfectly absurd thing to do, as I told the right hon. Gentleman at the time. As we stood on one of the islands together, I said to him, "Looking round these islands, seeing the beauties of them and the perfection of the playing places for our schoolchildren, what would you have given to be here as a child? He said, "Of course, you are right. I will scrap it at once." One could only wish that somebody from the Ministry of Education could have come down and taken the same personal interest.

9.15 p.m.

Having said that, I should like to pay my tribute to the Minister, because he was instrumental in setting up the mechanics for a special report which I have on the economic conditions in the Isles of Scilly, namely, the Larrard Report. There are various things in it which the Minister knows, and those who have studied it will agree, show the special characteristics of the islands. Indeed, only recently the Minister wrote a letter to the Council in which he said: The issue is complex and involves several Departments of Government. It is much affected by the amount of general grant and of rate deficiency… It seems desirable that one Department should maintain a general oversight; and it has been decided that this Department should do so. That is the result of our trying for a long time to get acceptance by the Government of the idea that one Department should take a general oversight of the problems in the islands.

These things should be acknowledged, and the Government should realise at last the special importance of these islands. As the Minister has rightly said, we cannot at this stage prejudge the issue, but I wish to make known the views of the people of these islands, which they express in this House through me, because I am the only person who can do it. The hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) asked if other English islands were concerned, but there are none comparable to the Isles of Scilly. The Scottish islands are fortunate enough to have representation in the Cabinet through the Secretary of State for Scotland. Unfortunately for the Isles of Scilly, they only have the hon. Member for St. Ives, who is not quite the same status.

Mr. G. Thomas

The hon. Gentleman is too modest.

Mr. Howard

However, he does his best every year to try to keep this matter before the House. But I will not go into all the other aspects of the matter at this stage, especially in view of what the Minister has said. I only wish to have on record once again the very special characteristics of these islands, and I hope that my few remarks have proved that it would be quite hopeless to merge them with the County of Cornwall. It would be so unfair to saddle Cornwall with the inevitable extra expenditure in respect of schools and so on.

At the moment, as I see it from reading this hypothetical illustration, the situation remains that if they do not do much about it they will be better off, but if they wish to progress with their enormous housing programme—of which I have the details here, but with which I do not wish to weary the House—then it will cost them more. After all, so little money is involved in this problem, but it is of importance in the lives of the people who live there. I am sure that we wish to maintain round our coasts men of this sort of independent character. However, I warn my right hon. Friend that I have been trying to keep them patient for a long time, but, in the famous expression of somebody rather less worthy before the war, their patience is very nearly exhausted.

I conclude by saying once again that I hope my right hon. Friend, if possible, will impress upon the Commission that, whatever happens to these islands, they must be treated as a special case and not linked to the County of Cornwall.

Mr. Ede

I am quite sure that my hon. Friends on this side will be grateful to the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) for the tribute he paid to our late colleague the right hon. George Tomlinson. He was not the only Member of that Government who visited the Scilly Isles. I went, but I did not go by sea, because I am probably the worst sailor in the House. I went by air.

I carried through an amalgamation scheme dealing with the Scilly Isles which had a remarkable effect. I lowered the police rate in the Scilly Isles but doubled the size of the police force, because by constituting a joint police authority for Cornwall and the Scilly Isles that remarkable result was achieved.

As I understand it, the Minister's Amendment is merely an enabling Amendment which is being inserted, according to the Minister, at the request of the Council of the Isles of Scilly. Before anything can happen with regard to it, we shall have to go through the whole proceedings that are laid down in this part of the Bill.

I hope that some of the disadvantages from which the islanders at present suffer may possibly be removed as the result of some joint understanding between them and such county as may be willing to co-operate with them. They are limited only to one county, but I do not think that that county is inclined to be unco-operative. I hope also that it will mean that something can be done to improve the highways of the island.

Let me remind the hon. Member for St. Ives what happens. As no grants are made to the Scilly Isles for highways, no taxes are levied on their motor vehicles. The Council of the Isles of Scilly said that it would like to improve the roads, on St. Mary's at least, and therefore suggested that a voluntary contribution of 5s. a wheel should be made by the owners of cars on the island.

Mr. Page

Only one.

Mr. Ede

Six owners each contributed £1. When the others were asked what they would do, they said, "We will see what you do with the £6 first."

I suggest that idyllic as these islands are in many respects, if they wish to retain their young people they must realise that they are living in the twentieth century and that some of these things may be capable of being adjusted if this enabling Clause can be used to the mutual satisfaction of the islanders and the residents on the mainland.

Mr. Page

I rise only to support my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) in saying how unique a position the Scilly Isles hold. Since the House is in reminiscent mood, I can speak from knowledge of the Scilly Isles because I spent my honeymoon there. On that occasion, I found that the whole of the islands were governed by one police constable, whom the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) later doubled. I do not know why. It was a great disappointment, for the one police constable had complete and utter control of the island.

Mr. Ede

Until the hon. Member went there.

Mr. Page

Oh, no; while I was there. Not only have I knowledge of the islands twenty-four years ago. The next time I went was last year. The honeymoon on that occasion was with the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). We were sharing the islands together. It was not such a pleasant honeymoon as the first one.

Nevertheless, one sees the development of the islands, a development entirely along their own lines, strong independent lines. I see no weakness whatever in the administration there, and when one visits as a Member of Parliament one takes an interest in the local authority, in local social functions, and so on. There is great strength and great loyalty within the community of the islands, and I hope no commission will mess about with this but will leave them strong and independent.

Mr. M. Stewart

I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman could clear up one point about this Amendment which is puzzling me? I understood him to say that it was put in at the request of the council of the Isles of Scilly, because otherwise they would be outside the purview of the Commission and they thought that the Commission might be able to help them solve some of their local government problems.

What puzzles me is whether this Amendment enables the Commission to do anything for the Isles of Scilly except to recommend their inclusion in an administrative council. If I followed the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) correctly, that is the one thing he thinks they do not want done. So what is puzzling me is that the Amendment does not seem to enable the Commission to do as much as the Isles of Scilly would like in one direction and perhaps enables it to do more in another.

Mr. H. Brooke

I will endeavour to clarify this point. The Council of the Isles of Scilly asked that at an early date the Commission should examine their problems. On examining the Bill, it was found that it would be ultra vires for the Commission to do so. Therefore, some amendment of the Bill was needed which would enable the Commission to look at the problems of the isles. Indeed, quite apart from the request of the Council of the Isles of Scilly, it would not be unreasonable for this to happen because, by common consent, the isles have certain local government problems. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) stressed that point.

If one is appointing a Local Government Commission it would seem anomalous not to give that Commission the chance of seeing whether it could make any contribution towards the solution of the problem. I am not saying in advance whether it could or not. It is difficult to see what other power the Commission could be given except the power that is set out here. One could hardly give authority to the Commission to constitute the Isles of Scilly a county borough or something of that kind.

If the House will accept this Amendment, then it will put It within the powers of the Commission to look at the problems of the Isles of Scilly and, if the Commission thinks fit, to make a report on the matter. My hon. Friend has made it clear that his hope is that the Commission will recommend against doing any such thing as is here set out, but I think on all counts it would be unreasonable if the Commission was debarred from going anywhere near the isles, considering that the isles have avowed local government problems.

Amendment agreed to.