§ 21. Mr. Marloweasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the cost to the fund if the rule excluding widows under 50 years of age from benefit were abolished; and what would be the cost if the age were reduced to 40 years.
§ The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter)On the basis that the change applied to existing widows, the cost of the first proposal would be of the order of £25 million a year and of the second about £20 million a year.
§ Mr. MarloweIs not the principle behind this harsh rule introduced by the Labour Government the fallacious assumption that these women can easily obtain work? Does not my right hon. Friend realise that many widows, because they have children to look after or because they live in non-industrial areas and have never been out to work before, are quite unable to obtain employment and have to live on National Assistance? Would he not refer this matter back to the Advisory Committee, with these considerations in view?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterMy hon. and learned Friend will be aware that this matter was carefully considered by the Advisory Committee some eighteen months ago and that it came to the conclusion, and so advised me, that on the statistics put before it the difficulties which my hon. and learned Friend foresees would not arise. He will also know that other provisions, giving a flying start in sickness and unemployment benefit, were introduced at the same time.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsIn view of the hon. Member's reference to the Labour Party, may I ask the Minister whether it is not true that the provisions eventually adopted in the 1946 Act were more favourable to widows than those in the Coalition Government's White Paper or in the Beveridge Report?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI think that the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. and learned Friend are both right on different aspects of the matter. The limitation on widows up to a certain age who neither had young children nor were sick was introduced in the right hon. Gentleman's original Bill. The figure referred to in my hon. and learned Friend's Question was introduced in our Bill about eighteen months ago.
27. Mrs. Jegerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much it would cost to abolish the earnings limitation on widowed mothers, and to pay widowed mothers' allowances irrespective of earned income, as is done regarding unearned income.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe direct cost would be about £2 million a year.
Mrs. JegerWhy has not the right hon. Gentleman been a little more forthcoming on this subject? Is not this an anomaly 834 which it would be fair to refer to the National Insurance Advisory Committee? Is he not aware that it strikes many people as extremely unfair that earned income should be treated differently from unearned income in this connection?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe question of these widowed mothers was, in point of fact, before the National Insurance Advisory Committee some eighteen months ago. So far from not being forthcoming on the matter, the hon. Lady has put down a Question and I have answered it.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsI do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can answer this supplementary question or whether he would prefer notice. One of the facts in the background to the problem has been that before the Second World War private employers and, indeed, some public employers when employing pensioners, including widows, deducted their pensions from the wages paid, which caused a good deal of concern among trade unionists. Does that practice still exist, and if it does, to what extent does it exist?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI should be grateful if, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests, he would be good enough to give me notice of that question.
§ 28. Mr. Sumnerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the estimated cost of abolishing the earnings limitation in assessing the various allowances and pensions of widows, under the National Insurance Act, in order to bring them into the same position as those with an unearned income.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe direct cost would be £6½ million.
§ 29. Mr. Sumnerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the number of widows over 40 years of age who have ceased, since February, 1957, to be entitled to the widowed mothers' pension before becoming entitled to widow's pension at the age of 50 years; and what steps he has taken, or will take, to ascertain by factual evidence whether such widows are suffering hardship.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterUp to the end of December, about 450. The change in this 835 age limit for widow's pension was accompanied by arrangements designed to avoid hardship under which widows who find themselves unable to work after their widowed mother's allowance ends can qualify as appropriate for sickness or unemployment benefit at the same rate as a widow's pension. Further, as part of the same arrangements, a widowed mother's allowance is now paid in all cases so long as the widow has a child under 18 living at home. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the National Insurance Advisory Committee gave very careful consideration to this recommendation, and I have no information which leads me to doubt the soundness of its view that this provision would not cause hardship. I will continue to watch the position closely.
§ Mr. SumnerDoes not my right hon. Friend agree that the opinion of the Committee was purely theoretical at the time, and would it not now be worth having a factual inquiry to see whether that opinion has been justified or not?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIt is not fair to say that the opinion was theoretical. A considerable volume of statistics was submitted to the Committee, which had been obtained by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. In fairness to the Committee, I should say that it dealt with the matter in a very practical way.
Mrs. JegerIs there not some slight misunderstanding in the Question? Can the Minister say whether a widow ever becomes entitled to widow's pension at the age of 50? Is it not part of the unfairness about which complaint is made that if her husband dies before she is 50 she never becomes entitled to a widow's pension?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe point which my hon. Friend has in mind and which is very properly put in the Question is where the eligibility to widowed mothers allowance ends after the age of 50.