§ 28. Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to ensure that there is an equitable distribution of nurses as between the London teaching hospitals and the smaller provincial hospitals.
§ Mr. Walker-SmithThe problem of distribution generally is before the National Consultative Council on the Recruitment of Nurses and Midwives, and I shall consider it in the light of the advice they give.
§ Mr. JohnsonIs it not true that there are large queues and waiting lists of young nurses for London hospitals? Would it not be possible to devise a voluntary scheme whereby London teaching hospitals were linked with hospitals like those at Rugby, Nuneaton and Leicester, so that nurses, perhaps at the beginning or the end of their four years, could spend one year in our provincial hospitals which at the moment are lacking nurses?
§ Mr. Walker-SmithTeaching hospitals have already been encouraged to send their student nurses for periods of training to sanatoria and mental hospitals in particular. In regard to bringing into being such an arrangement as the hon. Gentleman has in mind, I would not be prepared to do it by compulsion, because that would be prejudicial to recruiting.
§ Dr. SummerskillAre not the waiting lists at London hospitals made up of a large number of girls from the provinces? What is the right hon. and learned Gentleman doing to focus attention on the fact that the provincial hospital can offer a good nursing service, good teaching and amenities, and sometimes amenities which are not even forthcoming in London?
§ Mr. Walker-SmithI do not know that it is for me to attempt to catalogue the comparative amenities of London and the provinces. The right hon. Lady may be assured that all these matters are present to the mind of the National Council. As I say, I will certainly take into consideration their review of the matter.
§ Dame Florence HorsbrughIs my right hon. and learned Friend aware that efforts have been made over and over again to see whether more students would go to 22 hospitals outside London, and that in spite of there being in many cases not the same amenities in London, many students prefer to go to London hospitals with a good name so that they can say afterwards in their careers that they were trained at a particular hospital?
§ Mr. Walker-SmithAs my right hon. and learned Friend knows from her great experience in these matters, there is a definite and well-understood attraction in training at a London teaching hospital. In the final analysis, these things must be a matter for the individual judgment and taste of the persons concerned.
§ 29. Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that hospitals in the Coventry area are obliged to close beds because of shortage of nursing staff; and what action he proposes to take in this matter.
§ Mr. Walker-SmithI am not aware of any general or appreciable closing of beds in the Coventry area because of shortage of nursing staff, but if the hon. Member will let me know what hospitals he has in mind, I will make inquiries.
§ Mr. JohnsonIs the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that specialist doctors in my constituency and elsewhere take a serious view of this shortage? I assure him that at the moment the beds are not used because of lack of nursing staff. These are facts. Will not the right hon. and learned Gentleman go on the air, on the B.B.C., and publicise the shortage of nurses in the same way as publicity was given to the lack of teachers and, in the past, to the lack of miners? This is a very serious matter in the Midlands.
§ Mr. Walker-SmithThe only case of shortage I know of in the hon. Gentleman's constituency is Sit. Mary's Maternity Hospital in Harborough Magna. The hospital management committee there is seeking to fill vacancies. On the generality of the matter, it is engaging the attention of the National Council, to which I referred in answer to the hon. Gentleman's last Question, and it will be considered at an early meeting.
§ 33. Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there is a shortage of nurses in general hospitals; what has been the trend of recruiting 23 during the past five years; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. Walker-SmithWhile there are shortages in some hospitals, there has been a most satisfactory increase in the total numbers of nursing staff during the past five years. With permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. JohnsonHas my right hon. and learned Friend in mind any specific proposals for recruiting more nurses? What does he think is the main deterrent to greater recruiting?
| The numbers of whole-time and part-time nursing staff of various grades in hospitals, other than mental and mental deficiency hospitals, at 31st December, 1952 and at 30th September, 1957, were as follows:— | |||||
| — | At 31st December, 1952 | At 30th September, 1957 | Increase or decrease | ||
| Trained nurses: | |||||
| Whole-time | … | … | 32,334 | 36,215 | +3,881 |
| Part-time | … | … | 6,498 | 10,238 | +3,740 |
| Student nurses | … | … | 44,932 | 47,128 | +2,196 |
| Other nursing staff: | |||||
| Whole-time | … | … | 29,183 | 26,891 | -2,292 |
| Part-time | … | … | 10,678 | 16,591 | +5,913 |
| Total: | |||||
| Whole-time | … | … | 106,449 | 110,234 | +3,785 |
| Part-time | … | … | 17,176 | 26,829 | +9,653 |
| During this period the number of whole-time trained nurses at all hospitals, other than mental and mental deficiency hospitals, increased by 12 per cent. and the number of student nurses by nearly 5 per cent. All classes of whole-time nursing staff together increased by 3.6 per cent. and of part-time nursing staff by 56.2 per cent. |
§ 34. Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health for what reason the salary of a State registered nurse reverts to that of a student nurse if she takes a course in midwifery, though this does not happen if she takes any other post-graduate course; and if he will take action to end this anomaly.
§ Mr. Walker-SmithAll women undergoing midwifery training are regarded and paid as pupil midwives during the course, but those who are registered nurses receive a higher training allowance than those who are not. These arrangements have been in force for a long time and have been agreed to by both sides of the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council.
§ Mr. JohnsonIs my right hon. and learned Friend aware that a great deal of resentment is caused because it is necessary for nurses wishing to get on in
§ Mr. Walker-SmithI catalogued these on 16th December last in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. A. Roberts), and perhaps I should not repeat that rather lengthy list now.
§ Mr. HastingsDoes not the right hon. and learned Gentleman feel that wider distribution of medical students in their last two years might be of advantage, not only to the other general hospitals and the medical students themselves, but in assisting recruitment of nurses?
§ Following are the details:
§ their profession to take this course and they are discriminated against compared with nurses taking other post-graduate courses?
§ Mr. Walker-SmithNo, Sir, I am not aware of any resentment about this. As I have indicated to my hon. Friend, this is an arrangement of long standing. It was established in 1943 by the then Midwives Salary Committee. The Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council, which reorganised the salary structure of hospital nurses and midwives in 1949, maintained this classification and continued the differential mentioned.
§ Mr. K. RobinsonIf the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not aware of any resentment, will he take the trouble to make a few inquiries among State registered nurses? Does he not think it is a considerable disincentive to taking this additional qualification? While it 25 is a matter for the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council, will he instruct his representatives on that Council again to take up the matter?
§ Mr. Walker-SmithI said there was no evidence of resentment and, as far as I am aware, there is none. The hon. Member must recognise that I have to have regard to the views as they are put forward through the recognised and authorised channels. In following those views, I think it proper to adhere to the principle which has been established now for fifteen years and which was reviewed and continued in 1949.
§ Dame Florence HorsbrughWill my right hon. and learned Friend take note of the information and suggestions given by hon. Members as to the resentment? Will he ask these bodies which are having discussions to take some notice of representations that we have made to the Minister today?
§ Mr. Walker-SmithYes, my right hon. Friend will know that I always have regard to everything which is said by right hon. and hon. Members of this House, but she must distinguish between the expression of opinion by right hon. and hon. Members and evidence of fact, to which I was referring. I have not so far had any evidence of fact, but, if either she or any other right hon. or hon. Member has any evidence of fact, I shall be delighted to consider it.