HC Deb 16 June 1958 vol 589 cc660-2
21. Mr. Lewis

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will publish in HANSARD a table of figures showing either the weekly or monthly number of assistance grants made in respect of rents, for each of the months commencing one month before the commencement of the Rent Act. 1957, until the latest convenient stated date; and what was the approximate average weekly or monthly grant in each case.

The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter)

I assume that the hon. Member is asking for figures for other dates corresponding to those given to him for April, 1957 and 1958, in reply to his Question on 19th May. I will therefore circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the National Assistance Board's estimate of the numbers for each month from June, 1957. As regards the second part of the Question, I can only repeat that it is not possible to say how much of assistance granted is attributable to rent, as the grant paid, after taking all the needs and resources of the applicant into account, is often less than the rent.

Mr. Lewis

Is it not deplorable that large sums of money are being paid out every week through the National Assistance Board, in effect to subsidise the landlords, and yet the Minister has no account of how much is being paid per week? Surely the right hon. Gentleman ought to know. Will he take steps to ascertain how much money per week, per month or per year is being paid out to landlords in rent subsidies?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As the hon. Member is perfectly well aware, that is not an accurate statement of the position. Indeed, much of the rents and rates included in the figures which I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT are rents and rates paid to local authorities. As to the figures, the hon. Member will be comforted by the fact that the number of payments which contain a rent element is actually 37,000 less in the most recent figure in the table compared with the earliest figure.

Mr. Lewis

If the number of grants is less, can the right hon. Gentleman also give an assurance that the total amount in cash is less? Is it more? If the right hon. Gentleman knows that fewer grants are being made, can he assure us that the actual amount of cash is smaller?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member has failed to understand how the grants are assessed. On the one hand, the needs of the applicant are calculated, including rent and other matters arising under the scale. On the other hand, resources are set against them and a balance is struck in that way. If the hon. Member understood how this is done, he would realise how quite impracticable is his question.

The following are the figures:

Estimated numbers of householders receiving weekly assistance grants whose grants took account of rent (or similar outgoings) and rates, at the end of each of the following months—
1957
June … … … 1,263,000
July … … … 1,257,000
August … … … 1,259,000
September … … … 1,262,000
October … … … 1,274,000
November … … … 1,287,000
December … … … 1,302,000

1958
January … … … 1,251,000
February … … … 1,242,000
March … … … 1,240,000
April … … … 1,230,000
May … … … 1,226,000
22. Mr. Lewis

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will state the total financial grant made in National Assistance towards rents by recipients of National Assistance since the introduction of the Rent Act, 1957.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

For the reason just explained to the hon. Member in reply to his previous Question, it is not possible to state how much of the expenditure on assistance grants can be attributed to rent in isolation. Where there are resources taken into account, any attempt to apportion the amount of assistance granted between rent and other requirements would be impracticable and meaningless.

Mr. Lewis

If I put a suitable Question on the Order Paper, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it will be possible for him to ascertain the figures in respect of old-age pensioners where grants are made for this specific purpose?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

If the hon. Member understood the system, he would see that his attempt—I am sure wellmeaning—to ensure simplicity would, in fact, involve further complication.