HC Deb 30 July 1958 vol 592 cc1525-30

11.46 p.m.

Mr. John McKay (Wallsend)

I wish to draw attention to a local matter which, none the less, seems to have national implications. I refer to the payment of fees to direct grant schools, and the unexpected situation which has arisen during the last two years in the area with which the Northumberland County Education Authority is concerned. If there is no trouble, one generally does not hear much about any particular subject; it is only when trouble arises that information comes to one's notice and action has to be taken.

My experience with the Ministry on this matter leads me to feel that, in one respect, I am pushing at an open door, and, in another respect, I am bumping my head against a stone wall. I wonder how far we can go in order to give satisfaction to my constituents and the particular schools involved. I imagine that the matter had not been raised with me hitherto because the trouble did not exist; no changes in the Ministry's regulations have been made and no new legislation has been introduced. The problem seems to have arisen because of the action or attitude of the particular local education authority.

I say at once that the direct grant schools are helping very greatly in the furtherance of our national education policy. They are covering a great deal of ground, dealing with a tremendous number of pupils, and they have established a great number of schools to help in the general working out of our education scheme. There ought not, therefore, to be introduced any new circumstance which tends to create friction between those who like to use these schools and others.

As it is put to me by the Director of Education for Northumberland the position is that, although the change has been introduced, no criticism should arise because, in his opinion, looking at the matter on a population basis, his local authority is dealing with the situation more satisfactorily than are other local education authorities.

The position in the area is that the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, the Gateshead Education Authority, the whole of Northumberland and County Durham grant any children who have qualified for county grammar school education free transfers to direct grant schools. I cannot speak with absolute authority, but I think that some financial difficulty arose between the local education authority in Northumberland and the Minister. Arising out of that difficulty, the local education authority seems to have taken umbrage and introduced a new condition in relation to direct grant schools. They are now limiting the number of free places in these schools. Before they used to allow all the boys who qualified for places to transfer freely.

On the general principle of population, the Minister will endeavour to use arguments to try to get the position changed. That is where we have an open door. Ministerial policy in this matter is that there is no opposition to these free transfers continuing as far as the Northumberland County Education Authority is concerned. It appears to be an objection entirely at the door of the local authority.

The Minister is expected to look after the general policy of education in the country and expected to guide local education authorities in any problem that arises. His attitude at the moment is entirely favourable to the old position, the continuance of free transfers. On the argument of population, the Director of Education for Northumberland says that if one goes into all the statistics it is in a favourable position. But is that a sound basis on which to judge? The population in any particular area will vary at different times. Some areas may have more people who want to go to these direct-grant grammar schools. It depends on the attitude to education of the people in a particular area.

While we have the open door in regard to the general policy on free transfers, there seems to be a general attitude throughout my area that every encouragement should be given to the direct-grant grammar schools, and particularly the denominational schools, where they have a keen and conscientious attitude towards the subject.

I have been informed of a parent, who lived in the City of Newcastle, whose child had a free scholarship. For various reasons, including health, the family moved outside the city into Northumberland County. Now, the parent has to pay £44 a year because he is in the county area. I am informed also of twins who this year have had free places and who want to go to St. Cuthbert's School; but if they do, £44 in fees must be paid for both of them.

When was the scale regulating these fees introduced? About two years ago, I was informed by an official that it was introduced in 1945. It continues unchanged. It might be said that because people now have higher wages, they are better off than in 1945 and can overcome any difficulty. It is an important matter when the Ministry cannot enforce what it would like to introduce in the Northumerland County area. The Minister of Education has a responsibility to examine carefully the scale which was introduced in 1945 and still exists. On a superficial view of wages, without going into details, he might get the idea that people are better off than they used to be and no harm is being done.

I have with me a copy of the scale. In 1945, a one-child family with an income of £7 10s. would pay no fee. If it can be shown that when all the circumstances are considered, a one-child family is now worse off than when its income was £7 10s., there is clearly need for revision of the scale. Since then, the rise in wages has been about 73 per cent. At this rate, the £7 10s. is equivalent to £13. It might, however, be suggested that as the cost of living has risen by only 65 per cent., the parent is now in a better position, even when fees are charged. There are, of course, many other factors.

The parent who paid 6s. 4d. tax on an income of £7 10s. now pays 14s. 2d. tax a week. Whereas he was paying 2s. 10d. a week insurance, he now pays 9s. 11d. He was paying no fees at all, but now he pays 8s. 5d. a week. Worked out on the basis of the cost of living, it will be found that, with fees, tax and other outgoings beyond what were paid in 1947, the man is about 15s. a week worse off in terms of purchasing power than in 1947. If a man is, largely through the scale, 15s. a week worse off than in 1947, then the time has arrived when the scale ought to be revised.

Having examined this matter with some care and over some time, I suggest that if the Ministry cannot enforce the policy they want adopted of free transfers to qualified children, then it is time the scale was revised. Or, as a simple operation, leave the scale as it but raise the income level one-third. That would provide a helpful but not extravagant benefit, and I think it is well worth considering. I hope that the Minister will consider both those points, and will be able to do something to help the Northumberland County Education Authority.

12.1 a.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Sir Edward Boyle)

I will, of course, study carefully the speech which the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. McKay) has made. I must say I recall that when I used to listen to him in economic debates I did not always get the full drift of his argument, but I will, naturally, pay attention to what he has said.

As the hon. Member quite fairly stated at the start of his speech, there is quite a considerable history to this controversy over the taking up of places in direct-grant schools. As a matter of fact, a good deal has already been done by the Northumberland County Education Authority to meet the hon. Member's point of view. I will not go into details at this hour of the night, because I do not think it is necessary. I would only say, incidentally, that I was glad to hear what he had to say on the general subject of direct-grant schools, and that I hope he will discuss this issue at some time with his hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart).

I confess that on the points the hon. Member raised I cannot go quite all the way with him, because I think that he tends to start from a point of view which is rather different from that of the 1944 Education Act. The 1944 Act certainly enjoins local education authorities to bear in mind parental wishes; but, of course, they are not required by the 1944 Act to follow those wishes irrespective of other considerations. Section 76 of that Act, which is very often quoted, does include, as I am sure the hon. Member is aware, the saving words: … so far as is compatible with the provisions of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure. We are this evening dealing with an area which is to a very great extent within the purview of local authorities themselves.

Mr. McKay

The hon. Gentleman refers to their not going beyond reasonable public expenditure. Is it not a fact that these education authorities are going to this expense, which indicates that it is not unreasonable?

Sir E. Boyle

Certainly, it is for local education authorities to make up their own minds on these matters, as I shall explain. We expect local education authorities to make use of places in direct-grant schools to supplement their own school provision when it is defective, but in deciding the number of places they take up they must take into account the number of places they have available in their own grammar schools, and they are under no obligation to take up places in direct-grant schools when they have alternative places available in grammar schools they maintain themselves.

Mr. McKay

Does that apply in Northumberland?

Sir E. Boyle

I am just coming to the particular point of Northumberland. Northumberland proposes to pay for up to 150 places each year in direct grant schools in the Newcastle area. The authority also intends to take up to a maximum of 55 places in Catholic schools, at the Sacred Heart Convent School and St. Cuthbert's School.

The Northumberland County Education Authority is making a certain amount of provision specifically to meet the special wishes of Catholic parents, but I do not believe that the Ministry would be justified in pressing the authority to spend extra money which it need not spend, because it has grammar school places available in its own schools, to ensure that every parent should be able to send his child to a school of his own choice. That would really be to go beyond what the 1944 Act envisaged.

This point was discussed at the time when the Measure was going through. It was discussed both in this House and in another place. The whole issue was considered fully, but quite deliberately was not written into the Measure. It is my view, having read the hon. Member's representations carefully, having looked into the whole history of this matter, that the Northumberland County Education Authority has gone as far as one can reasonably expect it to go to meet the wishes of Catholic parents within the principles of the 1944 Act.

I do not think that I can say more than that tonight, except, as I say, that I will certainly read carefully and study the speech which the hon. Member has made.