HC Deb 29 July 1958 vol 592 cc1217-26

Lords Amendment: In page 102, line 40, after "payable" insert: by or on behalf a the Minister".

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is really a drafting Amendment. It deals with the certification procedure and makes it clear that the Minister will only certify the payments which he himself has made. There are certain ex gratia payments made by the Board and, clearly, it would be inappropriate, if not impossible, for the Minister to certify them. So this Amendment is little more than a clarification of the procedure to ensure that the Minister does not have to put himself and the Coal Board to a great deal of trouble in certifying something which is really irrelevant.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to: In page 103, line 50, at end insert: (2) Any reference in any provision of this Schedule to a sum paid on account of a prospective right to compensation of a description specified in that provision includes a reference to a sum paid in consideration of a waiver (whether total or partial) of a prospective claim to compensation of that description.

Lords Amendment: In page 106, line 41, leave out "to" and insert" and serve on"

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This, together with the next five, are drafting Amendments, designed to attract the provisions of the Ninth Schedule dealing with serving notices and other documents. They are purely machinery Amendments.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to: In line 42, leave out from "is" to "a" in line 43 and insert: a person to whom in accordance with the existing arrangements any periodical payments are payable

In line 44, leave out "he is entitled to those payments" and insert "those payments are payable to him"

In line 46, leave out "to which he is entitled" and insert "which are payable"

In page 107, line 14, leave out "to" and insert "and serve it on"

In page 110, line 28, leave out "25" and insert "26"

Lords Amendment: In line 34, at end insert: 28A. In relation to any land falling within paragraph 24 of this Schedule, the provisions of section twenty-four or section thirty of this Act, where applicable, shall have effect subject to the modification specified in paragraph 27 of this Schedule

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment, which again is very nearly a drafting one, is designed to make it clear that a tenant of land now under requisition, and derequisitioned after the commencement of the Act, will be entitled to compensation from his landlord under Clauses 24 to 30 for any of his improvements. At present, under the requisition procedure, the unfortunate man does not get anything. Under the new procedure in this Measure, of course, he will do so. Therefore, unless we make this Amendment here for the next couple of years there will be some unfair disparities. For instance, one man may be getting compensation for exactly the same thing under the new procedure which another man will not get because it was taken up under requisition procedure. That would be unfair, and therefore by this Amendment we shall assimilate the compensation payable under the requisition procedure for the short period it will still be in operation to that under the provisions of the Bill. I am sure this Amendment will commend itself to everybody.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In line 47, at end insert:

"Depreciation of other land in same ownership

30A.—(1) The Minister may by regulations make provision for the payment of compensation in respect of land which, at such time as may be prescribed by the regulations, is land wherein the interest of the owner is held by a person who is also the owner of land requisitioned for opencast operations.

(2) Ony such provision made by regulations under this paragraph shall be such as the Minister may consider appropriate for securing that compensation is payable thereunder, in respect of land to which the regulations apply, in cases, and according to principles, corresponding as nearly as may be with the cases in which, and the principles according to which, compensation is payable under section thirty-two of this Act in respect of land to which that section applies."

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House does agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment arises out of Clause 32, injurious affection, and provides that land which is so adversely affected, where the land is under requisition, shall again, broadly speaking, be treated in the same way as the land under a C.R.O. It is similar to the point we have just dealt with. For the future we are assimilating the compensation for injurious affection of the two cases, those under C.R.O. procedure and those remaining under requisition, which is clearly desirable.

Mr. Neal

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question? We are told that the Minister may, by regulations, make provision. We thought, when this Bill was introduced, that it would dispense with the use of Defence Regulations, yet here in this paragraph, and in subsequent pages this phrase is repeated five times. In recent years this House has continually expressed its objection to more and more delegated legislation, and I want to hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say in this regard. This might have been done by statutory provision instead of by the Minister making regulations.

6.0 p.m.

Sir I. Horobin

With the leave of the House, Sir, may I say to the hon. Gentleman that, frankly, I think there is something in the point, but the comparison is not fair, as I am sure he will agree. In getting rid of Defence Regulations we are getting rid of the major power to take away a man's land from him. These are small matters of calculation. They are purely marginal. The Bill has set out in great detail—some of us think in almost too much detail—exactly how the main compensation Clauses shall work. We then find that from time to time there are small matters—this is a very small matter, for instance—where, because of the technical complications, a new Schedule and possibly a new Clause would be required.

That would overburden the Bill. This is nothing like the Defence Regulations which could take away a man's land. We are here dealing with a very small matter. We have laid down how compensation shall be paid for injurious affection in 99 cases out of 100, but it happens that between now and 1960 there will be certain cases where the land will be held in requisition and then be given up. This is a transitional matter. Those who have followed the passage of the Bill will not be surprised that what is clearly laid down for the general case becomes very complicated for small, marginal and transitional cases.

Rather than hold up the Bill and produce another terrible Schedule five or six pages long, it is better that the Minister should have power to make regulations for adapting in the small and transitional cases the provisions which have been clearly laid down in the general case. I would rather not have all these regulations, but if it is a choice between having the Bill before the Recess or not, then having these regulations is a small price to pay.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to: In page 111, line 15, after "apply" insert: in relation to any time after the commencement of this Act and before the terminal date

In line 19, at end insert: in relation to any such time

In line 23, after "land" insert:

  1. "(a) no sum shall be payable in respect of that land by virtue of paragraph (6) of the said Regulation fifty-one A. but
  2. (b)"

Lords Amendment: In line 42, at end insert: 34A.—(1) Where at the commencement of this Act—

  1. (a) any land already requisitioned for opencast operations is land which, if it were comprised in a compulsory rights order which became operative immediately after the commencement of this Act, would (within the meaning of the Fifth Schedule to this Act) be land to which that Schedule applies, and
  2. (b) in respect of that land any sum has been paid (whether by the Minister or by the Board) on account of any prospective right to compensation under the said Regulation fifty-one A.
the Minister shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this Act, issue a certificate specifying the amount and date of payment of that sum and the person to whom it was paid. (2) Any certificate required to be issued in respect of any land in accordance with the preceding sub-paragraph shall be served on any person who, at the date of issue of the certificate, would (within the meaning of the Fifth Schedule to this Act) be the mineral operator in relation to that land if the land were comprised in such a compulsory rights order as is mentioned in the preceding sub-paragraph. (3) The Minister shall serve on the Board a copy of any certificate issued under this paragraph. 34B.—(1) The provisions of this paragraph shall have effect with respect to any sum specified in a certificate issued under the last preceding paragraph. (2) So much (if any) of that sum as was paid in respect of compensation which (apart from paragraph 32 of this Schedule) would have accrued due after the commencement of this Act under paragraph (4) or paragraph (5) of the said Regulation fifty-one A shall be set off against any compensation becoming payable, in respect of any of the land to which the certificate relates, under paragraph 4 or paragraph 5 of the Fifth Schedule to this Act. (3) So much (if any) of that sum as was paid in respect of a prospective right to compensation under paragraph (6) or paragraph (7) of the said Regulation fifty-one A shall be set off against any compensation which may become payable by virtue of the operation, in relation to any of the land to which the certificate relates, of any provisions of the Fifth Schedule to this Act in accordance with paragraph 33 or paragraph 34 of this Schedule. (4) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that subsection (3) of section forty of this Act applies to any dispute about what proportion of any sum specified in such a certificate was paid as mentioned in subparagraph (2) or subparagraph (3) of this paragraph.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is a longish Amendment, but it deals with a small and non-controversial matter. It is designed purely to eliminate the possibility of double payments arising from the fact that we are dealing with a situation which has continued for a long time and for which the Coal Board has made special arrangements from time to time.

It appears that in the past the Board has sometimes paid lump sums in settlement of prospective rights, both for annual and terminal compensation. It would clearly be inequitable to make the Board pay all over again, without taking into account the fact that it had reached an agreement and had paid a lump sum in settlement. This will not damnify the man concerned, who will be entitled to the same sum in total, but the ex gratia lump sum already paid will be taken into account. That is obviously fair to the Board and it is obviously unreasonable that a man should be paid twice. That is all the Amendment does.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 112, line 7, at end insert: 35A. The provisions of the Eighth Schedule to this Act shall not have effect in relation to any land which, at the commencement of this Act, is land already requisitioned for opencast operations, whether that land is subsequently comprised in a compulsory rights order or not.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This deals with an odd case which we have discovered. It will be remembered that as drafted the Bill provided what was a mutually acceptable way of dealing with allotment holders, which was that their tenancies should terminate and that they should be wholly compensated. However, it appears that there are a few odd cases of persons who held allotments when the land was originally requisitioned and who continue to receive small payments, with the intention of going back to the allotment when the land is derequisitioned. It would seem rather foolish to turn them out and to make extremely difficult calculations as to what their compensation for disturbance would have been five, six or ten years ago.

All the Amendment does is to say that in those odd cases the existing situation shall continue and when the Board gives up possession at the end of its requisition, the allotment holders shall be entitled to go back to their allotments.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: After Amendment last inserted insert:

"Concurrent requisitions

35B. The Minister may by regulations make provision for modifying or adapting any of the provisions of this Act relating to compensation (including any such provisions contained in this Schedule) in their application to any land in circumstances corresponding (by reason that two or more parcels of land are at the same time land requisitioned for opencast operations) to the circumstances for which, in relation to compulsory rights orders, provision can be made by regulations under paragraph 21 of the Sixth Schedule to this Act."

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Mr. MacDermot

Hon. Members should note the fact that this last series of Amendments contains no fewer than four new powers for the Minister to make regulations. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Neal) mentioned, the Bill was intended to replace with a statutory code the provisions which had been applied under the Defence Regulations. Consistently through its passage, we have taken the view that the Bill was far too complicated and that the Government have attempted to introduce refinements into the law of compensation which we thought superfluous to any Bill, but which were quite out of place in what was, in effect, a temporary Measure, something catering for a situation which will last only ten to fifteen years.

Quite extraordinary refinements have been introduced and their result has been further complications. At every stage, still further complications have been found and new problems have arisen and we have had to have lengthy Amendments to deal with them. The Bill has now returned from another place with twenty-four pages of Amendments to it. On the last two pages, we find a series of problems for which the Government are unable as yet to provide solutions because they are so complicated that to deal with them would require very lengthy additions to the Bill. The Government's answer to that has been to give the Minister power to make regulations to cover those matters.

This is an illustration of what results when overmuch refinement is brought to bear on what should be kept as a fairly straightforward problem. I hope that when hon. Members opposite find themselves, as they undoubtedly shortly will, on these benches, we shall not hear complaints from them if we find it necessary in pursuing our Measures to take powers to make regulations. I hope that we have heard the last of that, at any rate from the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who at present grace the Front Bench opposite.

Mr. T. Brown

I support what my hon. Friend has just said. For two and a half hours we have been discussing Amendments submitted from another place. Those Amendments give the Minister eight new powers to make regulations. I have been in the House for more than sixteen years and I have seen much legislation, but I have never seen anything like this. It is complicated, confusing and extremely difficult for the ordinary layman to understand.

I do not know what the regulations will be. I wish that I could alter the procedure of the House so that we could debate regulations. The trouble about using regulations when we are faced with complications and complexities is that regulations are subject to an affirmative Resolution of both Houses and cannot easily be debated. I sometimes wish that I had the opportunity to make regulations.

I was rather surprised to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that these were only small matters. The preservation of woodlands in industrial areas is not a small matter for us. Because we have not had the appropriate regulations, for sixteen years we have had no power to prevent the devastation and destruction which has occurred. During the passage of the Bill, we have sought every opportunity to protect our woodlands.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

We passed that about eight pages ago.

Mr. Brown

I was straying from the path. I know that other hon. Members want to debate other Bills which interest them.

I hope that the Minister will be ultra-cautious and very considerate when he has to make regulations dealing with the woodlands in the industrial north and that he will see that the regulations are rigidly enforced to prevent the opencast authorities from causing devastation and destruction similar to that which we have experienced for the last sixteen years.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to: In line 33, at end insert:

"Depreciation of other land in same ownership

39A. In sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 30A of this Schedule, the reference to land requisitioned for opencast operations shall include a reference to land requisitioned as an opencast storage site; and the power to make regulations under that paragraph shall be exercisable accordingly."

After Amendment last inserted insert:

"Concurrent requisitions

39B. In paragraph 36 of this Schedule, the reference to two or more parcels of land which are at the same time land requisitioned for opencast operations shall include references—

  1. (a) to two or more parcels of land of which one or more are land requisitioned for opencast operations and the other or others are at the same time land requisitioned as opencast storage sites, and
  2. (b) to two or more parcels of land both or all or which are at the same time land requisitioned as opencast storage sites;
and the power to make regulations under that paragraph shall be exercisable accordingly."

In page 113, line 13, at end insert:

"PART V

PROVISIONS AS TO WOODLANDS

41A. Without prejudice any exercise of the power conferred on the Minister by paragraph 14 of the Sixth Schedule to this Act, the Minister may by regulations make provision for modifying or adapting any of the provisions of this Act relating to compensation (including any such provisions contained in this Schedule) in their application to land which—

  1. (a) at such time as may be prescribed far the purposes of this sub-paragraph (either generally, or in relation to any particular provision of this Act, or in relation to land of any description specified in the regulations) is or was land requisitioned for opencast operations or land requisitioned as an opencast storage site, and
  2. (b) at such time as may be so prescribed for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, is 1226 or was land used as woodlands, or as woodlands of a particular description specified in the regulations."

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