HC Deb 29 July 1958 vol 592 cc1183-6

Lords Amendments agreed to: In page 55, line 4, leave out "includes any interest in land" and insert: in relation to any land, includes any interest in or right over that land (including any such right inuring for the benefit of the public or of a section thereof).

After Amendment last inserted, insert: 'land' includes land covered by water

Lords Amendment: In page 55, line 8, leave out "other natural" and insert "similar"

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment and the new subsection (6) of this Clause, which we shall come to shortly, are designed to meet a point raised by those interested in minerals. It appears that there is a possibility that the definition of minerals in the Bill would not cover minerals in waste heaps. It is obviously the intention of the Bill that they should be so covered, and we want to avoid any possibility of doubt.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 55, line 29, at end insert: 'order conferring working rights' means an order made under Part I of the Mines (Working Facilities and Support) Act, 1923.

5.0 p.m.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is another of the Amendments dealing with rights to work minerals, to which I have already referred.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 55, line 43, at end insert: 'restoration', in relation to land, includes rehabilitation, and 'restore' shall be construed accordingly;

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This was an Amendment inserted in another place because it was felt that it should be made plain in the Bill itself that restoration includes rehabilitation of land. It is purely for greater certainty.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 56, leave out lines 16 to 20.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment merely removes the definition of "timber felling contracts". I have already explained that, now we are putting them under easements, this is no longer necessary.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 56, line 33, leave out from "means" to end of line 39 and insert: any of the following rights, that is to say, any right to take game or fish or other sporting right exercisable in respect of that land, any right to fell and remove trees standing thereon, any right to take timber or other wood, water, turf or other materials therefrom, any right to work minerals thereon (otherwise than by virtue of a mining lease or of an order conferring working rights), and any right to depasture cattle or other animals thereon, except any such sporting or other right which—

  1. (a) subsists only as a right incidental to the ownership of the land in question, or to some other interest therein, or to a right to occupy that land, or
  2. (b) is exercisable by virtue of a licence granted otherwise than for valuable consideration;
and any right over land which constitutes an easement or similar right in relation thereto, if apart from this subsection it would not constitute an interest in that land, shall be treated for the purposes of this Act as constituting an interest therein.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is more of an operative Amendment. In the first place, this definition brings in certain sporting rights, mainly in Scotland, I understand, which do not themselves constitute an interest in land and which were, therefore, previously excluded. It is obviously right that they should be included. Secondly, it is the operative Amendment dealing with timber felling contracts, which assimilates them to easements.

Mr. J. T. Price

This may be a formal matter, but, if for no more than curiosity on my part, I should like to have a little more information about where grouse moors and coal mining rights might go hand in hand. This is just the sort of thing which their Lordships would poke into a Bill like this. To allow it to go by unnoticed would be unworthy of this House.

I have enjoyed many days walking over grouse moors, where I was not in pursuit of game but was enjoying fresh air in certain wild parts of the country where I have always claimed the right to go, whether it is legal or not. Perhaps that is a rather doubtful thing for a Member of this House to say, but this has been my way of looking at these matters. Since we are asked now formally to endorse this recommendation, I should like to know what grouse moors some noble Lord had in mind which might be included within terms of compensation when these highly involved and technical matters are being decided.

Sir I. Horobin

I do not think that the matter is of world-shaking importance.

Mr. Price

Neither do I.

Sir I. Horobin

The point is simply that, not for the first time, the law of England differs from the law of Scotland in this matter. Certain rights in England, because they would constitute, technically, an interest in land, would attract compensation. Precisely the same rights in Scotland, because they do not technically constitute an interest in land, would not attract compensation. I am sure that every Scottish Member would rise in wrath if we did not put the matter right. We have, on this occasion, simply attempted to say that precisely the same people should be compensated in the same way for the same things, on which ever side of the Border they live. This seems perfectly reasonable.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: After Amendment last inserted, insert: (4) For the purposes of any provision of this Act, in so far as it refers to the state or condition in which land was at a time specified in that provision, regard shall be had to all matters relevant to the state or condition of the land at that time, including (but without prejudice to the generality of this subsection) the characteristics of the soil (whether on or below the surface), the presence of any minerals in or under the land, the growth of trees, hedges or other vegetation thereon, and any buildings, structures, apparatus or other works which were on, in, under or over the land at that time; and any reference in any provision of this Act to the state or condition in which land would have been, or might reasonably have been expected to be, in circumstances specified in that provision, shall be construed accordingly.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment is put down simply for clarification, to make sure that in those places where compensation is related to the state or condition of the land minerals are included. We think that that was the case anyway, in fact, but, as the point was raised in another place, this Amendment was put down for greater assurance.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 57, line 5, at end insert: (6) For the purposes of this Act waste heaps and other deposits resulting from the working of minerals shall be taken to form part of the land on which they are situated, if apart from this subsection they would not be taken to form part thereof, and any reference in this Act to the working of minerals on, in or under land, or to underground or surface working, shall be construed accordingly.

Sir I. Horobin

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is the Amendment I have already referred to, which deals with waste heaps and other deposits of minerals.

Question put and agreed to.