HC Deb 16 July 1958 vol 591 cc1394-404

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]

11.6 p.m.

Mr. George Thomas (Cardiff, West)

I seek to bring the attention of the House to issues nearer home and, in particular, to raise a matter of the first importance in the Principality. Everyone with any sense of responsibility for the well-being of the City of Cardiff is deeply disquieted at the present time by the present trend at Cardiff Docks and by the apparent indifference to her fate by the very people who should be actively protecting her interests.

The Port of Cardiff has a proud history of service to the nation, both in peace and in war. It enjoys the services of dock labour manpower second to none in the world. The time for the turn-round of a ship in the port will bear favourable comparison with that of any major port in the whole of Europe. Labour disputes have been fewer in Cardiff than in any other port in our country during the last decade.

It was our misfortune that the port was developed as a one-industry port. She became the greatest coal exporting port in the whole world. In the 'thirties Cardiff shared in the general depression, came to life again during the war, but since 1945 there has been a long struggle to survive. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) and I, during the past thirteen years, have made repeated efforts in this House, with Government Departments and with private industry, to keep the docks alive. Considerable help was given when the Government made bulk purchases of food and timber. The ending of bulk purchase was a serious blow to the Port of Cardiff in relation to its imports.

A second very heavy blow was struck by what, for us, was the disastrous decision of the National Coal Board about the export of coal. Now another handicap has beset all our efforts to obtain increased exports and imports trade in Cardiff. The inequality of the charges is an issue which for a long time has caused considerable feeling in South Wales. This evening I received a long letter from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport concerning the question of changes at Cardiff Docks. In that letter he tells me that the Industrial Association of Wales and Monmouthshire, at its meeting held on 13th June, decided to seek an interview with Sir Brian Robertson to ascertain what progress has been made towards the removal of the alleged anomalies existing in dock charges and railway rates in the South Wales ports. I am very glad that decision has been taken, although I believe that the answer could be very quickly given. I am a little surprised to find this in the Parliamentary Secretary's letter, because I have before me a copy of the minutes of the same meeting and there is not a word at all in the minutes of the meeting held on 13th June, at Mount Stewart Square, Cardiff, about the decision to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

I do not dispute that such a decision was taken. I am only surprised that it was not thought of sufficient importance even to find a place in the minutes of the conference as circulated. The Port of Cardiff has its own customs, as have other ports in the country. One of our misfortunes is that those who ship at Cardiff have to pay a greater proportion of the charge of loading the ship than they would have to pay if they exported from Manchester, Clydeside, London, Plymouth, or almost anywhere else.

Recently, the Western Mail gave a striking example of the way in which these charges militate against the Port of Cardiff. It said, as an illustration, that if 300 tons of potatoes had to be unloaded it cost £150 less to unload them at Plymouth than it would have cost to unload the same potatoes in the City of Cardiff. Surely these customs that militate against trade at the docks ought now to be changed. I believe that the liner committee, with which consultations have been taking place, has not been forthcoming at all. I believe that the committee is unfair to Cardiff and is inexcusably obstinate in its refusal to change its present attitude to these charges.

We are now faced with an increased urgency, for we are overshadowed by a general shipping depression. In an article in the Sunday Times, as late as 29th June last, Mr. W. A. Vaughan Reid stated: Although nearly seven million tons gross of merchant dry-cargo and oil-carrying ton- nage is lying idle there are still far too many ships in service. He went on to say: The immediate future for merchant shipping is hardly encouraging. Certainly no recovery can be expected this year, and unless unforeseen circumstances intervene, the present depressed conditions could very easily continue over the next two years or so. This poses a serious threat not only to shipowners but also to the numerous allied industries, the most important of these being shipbuilding. At Cardiff we have been hit severely by unemployment in our docks. The last published figures, for 16th June, indicated that there were 987 people unemployed in Cardiff Docks, and that of these no fewer than 550 were engaged in the dry docks. Yesterday, when I was in my constituency, I met one man who has been employed by the Dock Labour Board, and he has never registered as unemployed because he comes under the Dock Labour Board. He has had one week's work during the past three months, and the Dock Labour Board figures, as published recently, indicate an appalling state of unemployment among its employees in Cardiff Docks.

During May, 40 per cent. of our manpower employed by the Dock Labour Board were out of employment, and at no period during the past year have we fallen below 25 per cent. of unemployment among our dock labour. My friends in the trade union movement in Cardiff estimate that the total number of unemployed in Cardiff Docks is now over 1,000, and that the dry docks alone have over 600 unemployed.

I ask the Minister whether these serious estimates which have been given to me are true. How does trade in the first six months of this year compare with that of 1957? We know that the first 20 weeks of the year showed a fall of 205,695 tons.

I want to be positive in this Adjournment debate. We have tried to help ourselves. The Cardiff Port Development Association has produced an excellent report, making positive suggestions as to what should be done to relieve our problem in Cardiff. The two most pressing reforms recommended are: first, additional outward sailings to attract exports; and, secondly, more advantageous letting of sites for industry. But this association, which consists of our leading docksmen in the City of Cardiff, goes on to say: Pressure must continue to be exerted to obtain the abolition of those arrangements, customs and obstacles which are prejudicial to the port. Cardiff asks for nothing but to be enabled to compete with other ports on equal terms for the trade which it is economically suited to handle. The most disturbing feature of all is the widespread conviction that the British Transport Commission has decided to write off Cardiff as a major port. The Commission recently announced that it proposed to spend on port development nearly £1 million at Swansea, over £1 million at Newport, £265,000 at Barry, and a further large amount at Port Talbot. We welcome this very much indeed, but it is significant that Cardiff is left out. We had to be satisfied with a very dusty reply which the Joint Parliamentary Secretary gave to me in the House on 18th June.

As reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT, the hon. Gentleman said: … the Commissioners are certainly doing their best … That can mean anything or nothing; it depends on what their best is. He continued, … since they were established they have spent a total of £5½ million on improving South Wales ports …. As far as Cardiff is concerned, they have deferred a decision to undertake developments there until they see a greater prospect of an adequate return on the capital."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th June, 1958; Vol. 589, c. 1098.] Those words have caused consternation amongst the people who are best informed about Cardiff Docks, for if the Transport Commission refuses to spend on the modernisation of Cardiff Docks, it is clearly writing off a most important, a major, port in the country. We have a right to know whether this is indeed the intention of the Transport Commission. If it is not the Commission's intention to write off Cardiff Docks, what urgent action does it propose to take to save them?

The Minister gives us answers which are polite. He has done so during the past few months. I wish that the Minister of Transport himself had shown sufficient interest in the Port of Cardiff to share in the debate tonight, because I am speaking for a highly indignant community who are getting tired of being fobbed off with committees or pretty phrases that have no meaning at all. Our people are becoming desperate with the unemployment which persists in Cardiff Docks.

What is the answer? I suggest that the Government should be turning their attention to the provision of facilities for new industries that would of themselves increase the export trade at Cardiff. The Treforest and Cardiff trading estates should be considerably developed, because they do not have a sufficient field of export industry behind them. Why not use the dock area for the encouragement of new industries? As for the new steel works which are likely to go to Newport, if they are only halfway between Newport and Cardiff there is plenty of space available and it would certainly be a great help for the importation of iron ore.

I have only one other point to make. The Minister brushed aside the suggestion which I put to him the other day that a South Wales docks board should be established. He said that we have a docks board. The plain truth is that we are satisfied that we are not getting a fair crack of the whip as compared with other ports administered by the Dock Board.

These are the reasons why I have taken the liberty of keeping the House at this late hour and of seeking to explain to the Parliamentary Secretary that we expect constructive ideas, greater energy and a greater sense of urgency from his Department than, unhappily, we have had during recent years.

11.21 p.m.

Mr. Raymond Gower (Barry)

I support most of what the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) has said. Large numbers of my constituents who live in the suburban areas of Cardiff work in Cardiff Docks and many of them have written asking me to speak in this debate. In addition, I would make a similar plea on behalf of the docks at Barry, because practically everything which has been said tonight about Cardiff applies with equal force to the Port of Barry. It applies with somewhat less force, I think, to the other ports in South Wales. These are arguments which can in some degree be adduced for all the ports which formerly exported coal, which was the traditional shipment from most of the South Wales ports.

These are excellent ports. They still have tremendous potentialities and it can be said that they have had, as the hon. Member suggested, a labour record of freedom from strikes and stoppages unequalled in practically every other port or group of ports in the United Kingdom since the war.

The progressive decline in coal shipments, due partially to the low production of coal throughout the country, including the South Wales area, and, secondly, to the increased demand for coal internally—we must recognise that—means that we have to develop general cargo shipments. I would like briefly to suggest to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary some things which can, and should, be done.

First, the dock and rail charges should be equalised. Sir Brian Robertson, Chairman of the British Transport Commission, speaking at Cardiff about three years ago, gave an assurance that these ports should be put on an equal footing with other ports of the United Kingdom which are within the Commission's control. If the Commission cannot do this, I submit that it should allow a local committee or dock board to take over which could go into business and offer its own terms. Secondly, the customs at the various docks regarding the allocation of charges between shippers and exporters should be brought into line with the customs at ports in other parts of the United Kingdom.

The Transport Commission and the Ministry of Transport have a function which they can fulfil, by bringing pressure to bear upon the various shipping lines. I consider it unreasonable that a shipping company should expect a different allocation of charges in one port than obtains in another port. Thirdly, the Transport Commission should consider at an early date the fuller provision of transit sheds, loading equipment and facilities for general cargo than are now available. Next, there could be even greater co-operation with the Board of Trade—I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade present—in attracting new export industries to the hinterland of these ports. There should be closer co-operation with the National Coal Board when coal shipments, imports or exports, are available.

The coal industry has had a close association with these ports and the industry and the ports have a mutual debt with one another. If coal is available for export, or if it becomes necessary to import coal, I submit that priority should be given to these ports in the moving of it. There should be closer co-operation with the War Office. For example, the S.R.D. situated at Barry does not necessarily export its products through the Port of Barry. My hon. Friend should put to his right hon. Friend the possibility of speeding improvements of the roads to South Wales. The communications with South Wales ports through Newport are still most inadequate and a good deal can be done to help Wales by work on them.

11.25 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Airey Neave)

The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) has most eloquently explained the difficulties of the Port of Cardiff and I think that the House has been much impressed by the way in which he has spoken of them. I am quite certain that what he has said will be drawn to the attention of the British Transport Commission, whose responsibility primarily this question of the development of the Port of Cardiff is. I will, as I have already undertaken, maintain contact with him on a number of points which he has raised on previous occasions.

I was also very interested in some of the suggestions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). I welcome the assistance of hon. Members in this very difficult matter, which the Commission has to tackle, of the future of the port. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is also here tonight and he has certainly been listening with attention to what has been said.

The Government do not in any way wish to minimise the difficulties of the Port of Cardiff. Let me make that quite clear from the start. These arise, as the hon. Member said, basically from the change in the pattern of United Kingdom trade. Before the war all five of the major South Wales ports tended to specialise in coal exports, and the volume of those has fallen drastically. In 1938, coal exports from the United Kingdom were over 38 million tons a year. They are now running at 10 million tons a year. In 1938, the coal exports from Cardiff alone were 5 million tons; they are running now at well under 500,000 tons a year. A drop of this magnitude obviously is very difficult to offset.

These problems are very serious. I should be misleading hon. Members if I gave the impression that there was any easy solution of them. I do not think that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West thinks the problems are easy. What he wants to know is how far I can say the Commission will tackle them. I will deal with the position of the Commission in a moment, but I want to make this general point clear.

Ports exist to serve trade, and this tends to flow in established channels, and it takes some time to redirect it. Trade cannot lightly or easily be redirected. It is not, in this case, possible deliberately to direct traffic to the Port of Cardiff. Shipowners and shippers, generally speaking, are free to use the ports which suit them best, though that does not mean they cannot be open to persuasion, but it is quite clear that that is the real problem which confronts the Commission and all those who have the interests of the South Wales ports, and the Port of Cardiff in particular, at heart.

As to the suggestion made by the hon. Member that there ought to be a South Wales dock board as the best method of administration—

Mr. G. Thomas

I want to make it clear that although I advanced this suggestion it was not my own idea, but that of Mr. Percy James, who is a prominent industrialist in the Cardiff dock area.

Mr. Neave

I examined that idea when I answered a Question that the hon. Member put in the House on 18th June. The South Wales ports are already administered as one unit. I have examined this matter carefully, and, frankly, I do not believe that it would improve the administrative system. I do not think that I have anything to add to what I said then.

It would be unfair to suggest that the Government, and the Commission, in particular, are indifferent to what is happening in Cardiff. Since the war, the Commission has reorganised and reequipped a good many things in Cardiff, including its central workshops. It has improved craneage and carried out important schemes of electrification of which the hon. Member will be aware. Some major developments have been carried out by private industry, principally by the Guest, Keen Iron and Steel Company in the provision of new cranes and ancillary equipment and by Mount Stuart Dry Docks Limited. I know that there has been disappointment at Cardiff, but so far the Commission has not been able to undertake a major development scheme there.

The hon. Member said that people were dismayed when, in answer to his supplementary question, I remarked, as I felt bound to do, that the Commission had to have a return on its capital, but this is a matter for commercial judgment. I emphasise that Sir Brian Robertson has said that the Commission has not closed the door on possibilities of developments in Cardiff. I shall draw Sir Brian's attention to what the hon. Member has said tonight, but one has to bear in mind the financial position of the Commission itself and the strenuous efforts that it is making to improve its results.

I was also asked about employment, I think that the hon. Member was referring specifically to the registered dock labour in Cardiff. This is, of course, largely a case of under-employment. Labour requirements fluctuate from day to day and week to week and the general position is that there is not enough cargo handling to go round. The figure which the hon. Member quoted for June was quite correct. I have other figures. I will try to break down the figures of under-employment in the wet docks and in ship repairing. I have not been able to get those details by today, but I will supply them to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

As for ship repairs, Cardiff, like many other ship-repairing ports, is certainly affected by the present world recession in shipping requirements but we take the view that this is more of a temporary position. It is interesting to note that there are proposals for a new ship-repair berth and tank-cleaning plant to be constructed in the Roath base in Cardiff. I hope that the hon. Member will think that is good news.

I have written today to the hon. Member about dock charges. It is a difficult question which, of course, is under discussion. As I understand, the disadvantage to the South Wales ports lies not in the total cost of loading general cargo but in the way charges are borne between shippers and ship owners. It is the custom of the port, and the present method can be changed only by agreement among the interests concerned. The Commission has always expressed itself willing to consider concrete examples. The hon. Member told me that the fact that the Committee of the Industrial Association of Wales and Monmouthshire had decided to seek an interview with the Commission was not in the minutes. I have discovered that the Committee wrote to my Department and had said that it sought an interview with the Commission. That probably explains the mystery. That is how I obtained the information and how I supplied it to the hon. Member. It is a very good thing that it is doing that.

The problem of charges is very intricate and I hope that we shall be able to do something through our good offices to make a solution possible. I have told the hon. Member that we shall continue with our good offices not only through my Department, but perhaps through other Government Departments. On the industrial points, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is here and will have heard what has been said.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Twelve o'clock.