HC Deb 02 July 1958 vol 590 cc1319-21
35. Mr. Lee

asked the Minister of Labour what changes Her Majesty's Government propose in the method of operating Whitley Councils in industries in which the Government is the employer.

Mr. Iain Macleod

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on 27th November last.

Mr. Lee

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the present position is quite impossible? The trade unions take their case to the Whitley Council and, under the present method used by the Government, if there is an agreement there is no guarantee that it will be carried out. If they fail to agree upon that, the Government say that in fact there is not a failure to agree between the parties and will not allow the unions to go to arbitration. Is the Minister aware of the great delays which the unions in the National Health Service have had? Is he aware that their case has only just gone to the Industrial Court? It is no good giving to the Industrial Court powers of infallibility and then refusing to allow the employees to use it.

Mr. Macleod

I think perhaps the hon. Member is a little confused in his supplementary question. I do not think the same considerations can in any way apply to Industrial Court awards as apply to agreements on Whitley Councils. Answering the question about the National Health Service Whitley Council, the Government are not the direct employers in that case, but the decision, which I am sure is right, to have a Ministerial veto, if it may be so described, was taken by the hon. Gentleman's own party.

Mr. Lee

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I am not confused on the issue. It is a fact, is it not, that the Government having refused to agree to the official side's agreement with the trade unions, those unions could not have a failure to agree registered and could not use arbitration? Subsequently months and months have elapsed and a new application has been made which now has to be taken to the Industrial Court. I am asking quite seriously that the right hon. Gentleman should make it possible either for agreements at the Whitley Councils to be ratified or for failure to agree to be registered and for the trade unions to have the right to go straight to arbitration.

Mr. Macleod

I understand that point. I do not think it follows that because there was one disagreement, I admit very difficult and serious, the system is necessarily wrong. If one were to insist on the official side always having its way it would mean a very considerable re-organisation of the membership of the official side of the Whitley Council, and I do not think that that would necessarily be for the benefit of smooth working. That is why I have no proposals for altering it.