HC Deb 29 January 1958 vol 581 cc383-7

4.1 p.m.

Mr. A. Fenner Brockway (Eton and Slough)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 22, at the end to insert: whose members are elected by adult suffrage". The purpose of this Clause is to provide that the Cayman Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands shall have certain assemblies which will be able, to a limited degree, to legislate on behalf of those territories. At present, in the case of the Cayman Islands, where the population is less than 9,000, the administration is through a commissioner, justices of the peace and 27 elected vestrymen. Above that body, there are the powers of the Jamaican Government, which are very considerable indeed.

In the case of the Turks and Caicos Islands, where the population is about 6,000, the administration is through a commissioner, three officials and eight persons nominated by the Governor of Jamaica, and here, also, the powers of the Jamaican Government are very considerable.

The Clause seeks to extend certain autonomy in the Cayman Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands. When he introduced the Bill, the Under-Secretary was not able to give details of the alternative proposals, but he did say that it was suggested that the legislative bodies should consist of some ex-officio members, some nominated members and a number of members elected by universal adult suffrage.

The purpose of my Amendment is to limit the membership of these bodies to persons elected by adult suffrage, and to remove from those bodies the membership of ex-officio officers and of nominated members. I should like to urge that course, because I very much doubt whether it is necessary in islands with a total population of less than 10,000 to establish all the eleborate machinery of legislatures, with elected persons, officers, nominated persons, a commissioner and an executive council, and all the machinery which the Minister himself has described as rather formal and ponderous. In effect, the population of these two groups of islands is no larger than that of a small market town in this country. It really would be pressing the formal machinery very far if these elaborate legislatures are set up.

In my view, this is a reason, not for limiting democracy in these islands, but for extending it. Why should there not be in both groups of islands directly elected persons who would have administrative authority there? Why should they not act in conjunction with the commissioners for these groups of islands, instead of being supplemented by officials, by nominated members, by executive councils and all the other suggestions that are made in this Bill?

I want to make the plea that if there is to be democracy in these islands it is desirable that the members of the administrative authority should be as close to the people as possible, should be dealing with their daily problems by direct contact, and that the total membership of these bodies which are to be set up shall be elected members, as is proposed in this Amendment.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. John Profumo)

If no other hon. Members have any points to make on this Amendment, perhaps I may say a word or two to the Committee myself.

I quite appreciate the point which the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) has made in moving his Amendment, but if I may deal with its wording to start with I must say that it would not be practicable to write into the Bill a positive requirement for adult suffrage itself. Although the meaning of that expression is generally well understood, considerable elaboration of it is necessary when we come to translate it into precise terms of law.

Matters of detail, such as length of residence, as well as such things as disqualifications for special reasons, and so on have to be provided for, and details of this sort, which must be liable to variation as experience and circumstances show, could not be embodied in an Act of Parliament. It is for this reason that it has always been the custom that that should be enshrined in local electoral legislation, capable of amendment from time to time according to the wishes of the assembly.

That is the intention in this case, but I want to give the Committee an undertaking that, whatever may have been the practice in the past in these territories, the new electoral laws, which would come into being following this Act being placed on the Statute Book, would provide for universal adult suffrage along the lines which I have described. I make that clear to the Committee because of the discussion we had on Second Reading, and I should perhaps also say that adult suffrage will apply to women to the same extent as to men.

To come to the actual point of what the hon. Member is proposing, the effect of accepting the Amendment would be to exclude nominated members and ex-officio members from the legislative assembly. I must tell the Committee right away that the Government do not feel that they should accept such an Amendment. It is the intention that elected members shall have a majority in these assemblies. There will be a majority of elected members, but, in our opinion, nominated and ex-officio members do play a very valuable part in these small territories at this stage.

I need not tell the hon. Member, who has been concerned with this matter far longer than I have, and whose experience is very wide indeed, that we are not departing from the custom in other Colonial Territories large and small, but, because I may have said on Second Reading that it might appear to be a rather top-heavy and cumbersome organisation, may I say I did so to point out that, in spite of that, Her Majesty's Government, in consultation with those in the territories concerned, believe that, however tiny these populations may be at this stage, and however remote, we should have in embryo the same sort of organisation which has worked for long periods of time in other Colonial Territories. I am convinced that ex-officio and nominated members will play no less a part in these territories than they have played in others.

I hope that I have been able to explain to the satisfaction of the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) why we could not accept the Amendment as it stands, and the reason which makes it impossible for me to accept it from the point of view of general principle.

Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South-East)

Although it is true, as the Under-Secretary of State has said, that the women in these islands have the same rights of suffrage as the men, in fact, by some local custom or practice, they do not exercise them. This is very retrograde. I am extremely surprised that the Chamber is not full of women Members today, making sure that their sex in the islands exercise the rights which have been so bitterly won in this country. Why do the women in these islands not exercise the vote?

Mr. Profumo

That is an embarrassing question for me to try to answer. Quite frankly, I have not the foggiest idea. I must he absolutely honest. I have no idea why the ladies in the Cayman Islands do not do what the law allows them to do. They may have a little more trust in their menfolk than have the ladies in this country. There are no lady. Members in the Chamber at the moment. The men may have felt in the past that if their ladyfolk kept to their homes, raising families, and left the menfolk to look after politics, it might he much better for the Colony.

If the ladies do not exercise their right to vote it will not be the fault of Her Majesty's Government. It is clear that the ladies will have the same rights as their menfolk. As time goes on, and the ladies there remark how successful women suffrage has been in this country, the position may alter.

Mr. Brockway

If the women remain in the home and a large proportion of the men work in the Bahamas, I do not see that there can be many people left to look after the islands. That emphasises my point that we do not need the great elaborate structure proposed in the Bill Although I am not satisfied with the Under-Secretary of State's reply, I have ventilated this point of view, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Brockway

On a point of order. May I call your attention, Sir Charles, to the Amendment to Clause 2 on the Notice Paper, in page 2, line 9, at the end to insert certain words?

The Chairman

The Amendment is out of order because it would need a Money Resolution.

Mr. Brockway

Was that fact conveyed to the Committee, Sir Charles? If so, I did not hear you do so.

The Chairman

I very often do call attention to it, but I thought that the hon. Member would be aware that the Amendment was out of order because it would need a Money Resolution.

Mr. Brockway

May I refer to the matter on the Motion for consideration of the Clause as a whole?

The Chairman

We have passed that.

Mr. Brockway

There was not only a genuine misunderstanding but a very understandable misunderstanding about the Amendment. No indication was given to me that it would not be called. I understand that it is the usual custom at the beginning of a Committee to say what Amendments will be and will not be called. I also did not appreciate that we had passed Clause 2.

The Chairman

I sometimes give that indication for the convenience of the Committee, but I cannot select Amendments which are out of order, so the question of giving an indication does not arise. I did not call this Amendment, as it was out of order.

4.15 p.m.