Science Graduates

HC Deb 19 February 1958 vol 582 cc1204-6

48 and 49. Mr. Hannan

asked the Minister of Labour (1) if he is aware that in Scotland third-class honours graduates in chemistry, geology or a biological science who wish to undertake school teaching are exempt from military service, whereas graduates with a similar degree in mathematics and physics and with teacher training are not so exempt; and what is the reason for this distinction, which prejudices teacher recruitment;

(2) if he is aware that in Scotland ordinary graduates in science subjects are exempt from military service provided they take up teaching in senior secondary schools, whereas those graduating on the higher standard with third-class honours in mathematics and physics and trained for teaching are not so exempt; and if he will remove this anomaly, which hampers recruitment to the teaching profession.

Mr. Iain Macleod

In consultation with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Education, and in order to assist recruitment to the teaching profession, I have extended this year the arrangements under which certain science graduates can have indefinite deferment to take an approved teaching post. Men with third-class honours or pass degrees in chemistry or one of the biological sciences and men with ordinary or general degrees in science may now be deferred. This was done on the advice of my Technical Personnel Committee, which also recommended the continued exclusion from these arrangements of graduates with third-class honours or pass degrees in physics or mathematics, because of the serious shortage of men with these qualifications in the services.

Mr. Hannan

Does not the Minister agree that it is also important that the needs of education should be met? Is he aware that children in senior secondary schools in Glasgow are at the moment receiving part-time education because of the shortage of teachers? Since there is this small number, why discriminate in the case of third-class honours?

Mr. Macleod

The discrimination, of course, is in relation to physics and mathematics, and it is because of the needs, in view of the great complexity, of Service life today, particularly in the Army and the Royal Air Force. I do not think that what we have done in these important concessions should affect teaching recruitment. People who are in training and will obtain their degrees in 1961 are not expected to be called up, anyway.

Mr. Hannan

How can the Minister justify the ordinary graduate in science subjects being exempt and the man with third-class honours, a higher degree, not being exempt? Surely that discrimination cannot be justified on any grounds?

Mr. Macleod

The point which I made in my reply to these Questions—a different point arises on Question No. 50—is the needs of the Services for these particular sorts of graduate. Obviously they have a bigger need for physics and mathematics teachers than for teachers of chemistry and biology.

50. Mr. Hannan

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that in Scotland third-class honours graduates in mathematics and physics are exempt from military service if they enter approved jobs in industry whereas similar graduates undergoing teacher training and an Ed. B. diploma course at the university are not so exempt; and if he will take action to obviate this discrimination against recruitment of urgently needed teachers.

Mr. Iain Macleod

I have to maintain a balance in this matter between the needs of industry, the schools and the Services. The number of science and engineering graduates who may be given indefinite deferment for approved employment in industry is limited by a quota system, which does not apply to deferment for school teaching.

Mr. Hannan

Will not the Minister look at the whole Question again in the light of his circular determining these things, really re-examining it with a view to giving to the children in the schools the education necessary for their future? Will he not take a long-term view and not such a short-term view?

Mr. Macleod

I am ready to look at this matter again. I have in fact made a great number of concessions, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I agree that in this respect the position is not wholly logical because the deferment and quota schemes were applied to industry before the different deferments for teaching were made by my Ministry.

Mr. Woodburn

Will the Minister keep in mind the fact that unless science graduates are sufficient in number in the schools the source will eventually dry up for all graduates? Will he not decide to keep the flow going, as well as to supply immediate needs?

Mr. Macleod

Yes, I acknowledge that, but I have also to consider the needs of the Services.