HC Deb 17 February 1958 vol 582 cc832-40
4. Mr. Houghton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons have been granted increases in weekly allowances by the National Assistance Board to meet rent increases since October, 1957.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that so far as concerns increases under the Rent Act, in respect of which separate records are kept, about 262,000 weekly assistance grants have been increased. I regret that figures in respect of increases other than those made under the Rent Act, for example by local authorities, are not available.

Mr. Houghton

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that number is still increasing, or has it, as far as he knows, now reached its peak?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman appreciates that the number is the number of applications made and that, whereas, of course[...] new applications continue to come in, it is not by any manner of means to be taken for granted that the 262,000 granted are still in payment, as the persons concerned may no longer be in need of assistance.

Mrs. Braddock

Can the Minister give us any idea how many applicants who had received the increase for rent have had it taken from them since they received the increase in pensions?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The Question I have answered related to the recipients of assistance who received supplementation. If the hon. Lady wishes to raise some other matter, perhaps she will be good enough to put a Question on the Paper.

8. Mr. H. Hynd

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the maximum amount of rent that is paid as part of National Assistance or supplementary pensions for controlled dwellings and decontrolled dwellings, respectively.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I would refer the hon. Member to the full statement which I made on this matter on 1st August.

Mr. Hynd

That statement, so far as I remember, did not give the actual maximum amount. Is there any reason why this amount should not be given to the House? I understand that directions have been given to local officers. Is there any reason why we should not have the information?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have nothing to add to the very clear statement of the principles applicable, which I commend to the hon. Gentleman's study.

10. Mr. Mikardo

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what addition there has been to the average weekly disbursements of the National Assistance Board in respect of rent increases effected since the passage of the Rent Act, 1957; and what he estimates this figure will be after 1st April, 1958, and after 1st October, 1958.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As I have made clear in answer to previous Questions on this matter, the National Assistance Board is unable, because of constant changes among the people receiving assistance, to estimate precisely the extent to which rent increases under the Rent Act have added to expenditure on assistance grants, nor is it possible to calculate future figures.

Mr. Mikardo

Is it not evident, in any case, that these sums will be very considerable indeed? Do they not represent a subsidy given to landlords by taxpayers, many of whom are worse off than the landlords? How can Her Majesty's Government represent this substantial gift from public funds to landlords as counter-inflationary?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this is assistance given to tenants who are unable to pay the full amount of the rent legally due. I must maintain the view I have expressed previously from this Box, that if someone is to be helped with rent there is a good deal to be said for doing it through the machinery of the National Assistance Board at the expense of the community and not as an individual act by the landlord.

Mr. Gower

Would it not be unreasonable to pay rent increases simply because people happen to live in council houses and not pay them in the case of privately-owned houses?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

That is a wider question.

12. Mr. Lipton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many applications for increased grants have been approved by the National Assistance Board in the London area arising from higher rents under the Rent Act, 1957.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that, up to 1st February, 23,980 weekly Assistance grants had been increased to provide for rent increases under the Rent Act in the County of London.

Mr. Lipton

Will the Minister bring those figures to the notice of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who, apparently, does not know what is happening in London? If the Minister will not tell us the amount invoved, will be at least say what check is made by the National Assistance Board to ensure that the thousands of pounds that are being paid out every week to the landlords up and down the country are, in fact, legal and reasonable? Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that many of the people concerned are either poor, old or ill, or all three, and fall for whatever the landlord may want to extort from them? What check is made by the right hon. Gentleman to ensure that this further loophole in the Rent Act is not being even more exploited by the rapacious landlords?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

There have been other Questions on that subject, to which I would refer the hon. Member. As regards the first part of his supplementary question, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is so well informed on all matters in general and on London in particular that I should hesitate to bother him with any further information.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Will the Minister consult the Board as to whether a notice could be put up at its offices indicating to recipients of assistance what steps they might take to ensure that the rent that is being charged them is lawfully charged?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I doubt whether there is any necessity for that. As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, the question whether the Board assists in cases when rent is improperly asked for has been raised on other occasions in this House. I have given a very clear answer, to which I should prefer not to add "off the cuff".

Mr. Griffiths

If a recipient gives false information concerning the rent he is paying, the Board will prosecute. Should not steps be taken to ensure that the rent charged by the landlord is fair and legal and that when it is not the Board should be empowered to take action?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows from his study of the Rent Act, there is provision by which notices improperly given under the Act constitute an offence.

15. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, in view of widespread concern that public money should not be unnecessarily paid to landlords, how many of the 260,000 cases, in which the National Assistance Board has up to 25th January approved weekly assistance grants for rent increases under the Rent Act, relate to decontrolled and controlled houses, respectively; and how much these additional payments cost the Board for the week ending 25th January.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that information relating to rents of property which has been decontrolled is not available for the whole of the period covered by the figure of 260,000, but that of some 220,000 of these increases between 1st September, 1957, and 25th January, 1958, about 3,000 were to provide for increases in the rents of decontrolled property. For reasons which I have several times given, it is not possible for the Board to calculate the additional expenditure on this account.

Mr. Dodds

Is the Minister not aware that last week he told me that if I put this Question down he would try to get the information? If the Board is paying out colossal sums of money, why is it impossible to say how much is a consequence of increased rents? Why does the Minister continue to dodge the issue? What machinery has the National Assistance Board to ensure that the money that is paid on controlled and decontrolled houses is in accordance with the law and that negotiations take place? Why is the Minister laughing? Do the Government want to give to landlords through the backdoor money that they are afraid to give in other ways?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have given the hon. Member the figure in which he was interested last week—that is, the very small relative figure of the number of cases relating to decontrolled premises. I have given several times—and I cannot inflict upon the House yet again—the perfectly clear explanation of why precise financial calculations cannot be given.

Mr. Dodds

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment to force these figures from the Minister for the benefit of ratepayers and taxpayers.

22. Mr. H. Hynd

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Assistance how far, before assistance grants are increased to provide for rent increases under the Rent Act, investigation is made to confirm that the minimum standard of repairs required by that Act has been complied with.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not know which requirement of the Act the hon. Member has in mind, but the National Assistance Board informs me that before providing for a rent increase, the Board's officers confirm that the landlord has complied with the statutory requirements by completing the notice of rent increase in the prescribed form and in appropriate cases they advise tenants to take their statutory remedies regarding disrepair.

Mr. Hynd

Although the landlord may have completed the statutory form, is no attempt made to inspect the house to ensure that the necessary repairs are done? Are there any instructions about this?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The Board does its best to help, but, of course, it is neither qualified nor would it be right for it to attempt to usurp the duties of local authorities in this direction. The Board's officers are not experts on the law concerning landlord and tenant, but they do their best to secure that the law is complied with and that the payments they make are made in accordance with the law.

Mr. Hynd

The answer, then, is that the landlord gets away with it.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member is not entitled to draw that assumption from my answer or from the facts.

Mr. S. Silverman

While I realise that the Board's officers are not experts in the law of landlord and tenant, does the Minister not realise that these tenants are not likely to be experts in it either? Since the National Assistance Board pays so much of the money, would it not be to the Board's interest, as well as being its duty, to investigate to ensure that the amount it is called upon to pay is legally chargeable under the Act which was passed by the right hon. Gentleman's Government? What is the difficulty in doing that?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have already told hon. Members twice now what steps are taken by the National Assistance Board, but, as I say, it is not for the National Assistance Board to hold itself out as expert on the law of landlord and tenant. It is able, however, from its practical experience to be of great assistance in this respect, but that does not derogate from the duty of these tenants or any others to seek to advise themselves as to whether demands made upon them are legally due. I think the hon. Member is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Miss Herbison

When the Minister says it is the duty of the people to see that they are not being charged too much, surely he realises that many of these people are old and unable to understand the legal complications? Others are not only old but also sick and chronically sick, and they just cannot be expected to know what their duty is, or, even if they do know, cannot be expected to be in a fit condition to carry it out?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government has made perfectly clear the sources of advice and information which are available for tenants whether in this category or others under the Rent Act. I do not think it is necessary for me to continue, in reply to this Question, the Committee stage debate on the Rent Bill.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Since there is anxiety about this, and as we read of cases in which the National Assistance Board, quite rightly under the Act, sometimes sues recipients of assistance for giving false information, does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Board, to keep faith with the public, ought to accept responsibility in this regard for ensuring that the rent it is paying through the recipients to the landlords is rent which is legally chargeable? Will he, to allay the public anxiety, which is deeply felt everywhere, consult the local advisory committees to see how best it can be done?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware, because he took through the necessary legislation, that the duty of the Board is to relieve need. That duty it discharges successfully, well and humanely. It is quite wrong for the right hon. Gentleman to seek to put upon it duties quite extraneous to it in relation to totally different legislation in respect of which plenty of advice, as my right hon. Friend has made clear, is available.

Mr. Griffiths

It is the duty of the Board to ensure that the assistance it pays is assistance which the recipients are legally entitled to receive, and since part of it is rent and the amount of the rent is governed by the Act, which is very complicated, will not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Board has a duty to see that the increased amount of rent charged is legal?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I made clear in my original reply what the Board does to make sure that payments are not in excess of those resulting from the law. If the right hon. Gentleman knows of any example in which he feels the Board has been extravagant in the discharge of its functions, no doubt he will draw it to my attention.

Mr. Peyton

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that this suggestion which has been made by the party opposite is most unrealistic and would make the job of the Board, which is already difficult and which it discharges with skill, quite impossible? Would not this added burden make a mockery of its task?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Yes.

23. Mr. Mitchison

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the total amount of increases in weekly assistance grants made up to 25th January, 1958, to provide for rent increases under the Rent Act, 1957; and what is the estimated amount required for that purpose up to 31st March, 1958.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As far as the number of increases up to 25th January is concerned, I would refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to the Answer I gave last Monday to the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds). As some recipients of these increases cease to require assistance, it is not possible to forecast precisely either future numbers or cost.

Mr. Mitchison

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how he has arrived at the figure in his Supplementary Estimate for increases of rent and, therefore, increases of allowances?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

No doubt the hon. and learned Gentleman will exercise his patience for the comparatively limited time which will elapse before that Supplementary Estimate is debated.

Mr. Mitchison

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, with great respect, to answer the question which has been properly asked him as regards the amount required up to 31st March, 1958? He has given in his estimate a figure which includes this and something else. I asked him, by this Question, to separate the part attributable to this.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have answered the Question which the hon. and learned Gentleman put on the Paper, and, as I have reminded him, in response to his previous supplementary question, which goes beyond that Question, an ample and more convenient opportunity to discuss this will be in the debate on the Board's Supplementary Estimate which the Opposition propose to debate.

29. Miss Herbison

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the number of persons in Scotland who have received an increase in National Assistance to meet an increase in rent, and the total amount of money which these increases represent.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that, so far as concerns rent increases under the Rent Act about which special records have been kept, about 21,000 weekly assistance grants had been increased in Scotland up to 1st February, by an average of 1s. 5d. Figures are not available about other increases in rents and rates, and for reasons I have given previously it is not possible to calculate the total additional expenditure on this account.

Miss Herbison

In spite of the Minister's continually giving the same reason today, that reason will not be accepted in the country. Surely it would be a simple thing, when he can get the numbers from the area officers, also to get from the area officers, for the last week when those figures are known, the extra amount which has to be paid to these extra numbers of people?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

No, as I have explained more than once, the special record was kept by the National Assistance Board of increased payments for rent under the Rent Act as the applications came in, but no record has been kept of the ceasing of those payments as people pass out of assistance. It is therefore perfectly plain that no figure can possibly be given as to the cost at any particular time.