HC Deb 16 December 1958 vol 597 cc1051-64

8.26 p.m.

Miss Joan Vickers (Plymouth, Devon port)

I am grateful to have this opportunity to discuss the question of recruiting for the Women's Services. We had a debate some time ago when, unfortunately, the women's point of view was not put forward. I am glad to say that it has since been raised in another place, which shows the use of noble Ladies in another place and the need for them to be there.

The reasons why I wish to discuss this subject are as follows. First, I want to pay tribute to the magnificent work already done by the Women's Services and to discuss the fact that in the Defence White Paper, Command 124, the impression was given that women were no longer wanted in the Services. There were 73 paragraphs laying down the Government's policy on defence, including civilianisation, putting out work to contract, the reserve forces, but no mention was made of the women.

I realise that a great many jobs in the Services cannot be done by women, but it is interesting to see that in the leaflets given to women by recruiting officers it is stated that there are thirty-one special categories for the W.R.A.C., eighteen for the W.R.A.A.F., and twenty-five for the W.R.E.N., and I contend that not enough women are employed in the various jobs.

On page 44 of the Grigg Report it is said that too many men are operating switchboards and driving staff cars. Paragraph 216 on that page says that these Women's Services are now accepted without question, since it is recognised that no large organisation should carry out its obligations by relying solely upon men. I hope hon. Members will agree with those observations.

Pay is not the first consideration for women because few women make their work in the Services a career, but I think that those who complete twenty-two years' service should have equal pension with men.

What is the problem? The Services say that they need between 5,000 and 6,000 women a year. At the present time the W.R.N.S. require another 41 if they are to have their 3,250 by 1963. The W.R.A.C., on the other hand, has more difficulty. If they go on recruiting at the present rate, by 1963 they will be 2,441 short, including officers. The same applies to the W.R.A.F., and if they go on recruiting at the present basis, by 1963 they will be very nearly 2,000 short.

I want to make some suggestions which might help in the recruiting of women to the Services. It is suggested in Recommendation xxii that there should be a lowering of the minimum age to 17 for all Services, and I think that is probably right in view of the fact that most girls receive education up to the age of 17. This is a recommendation which should be considered by the Government. Further, it is stated in Recommendation xxiii that the probation period of two weeks should be considered. I understand that this is done in the W.R.N.S., and I should like to see the other Services coming into line. It is a very strange and difficult world for these girls who go into the Services, and I think the recommendation should be given considerable attention with a view to making recruiting more attractive. One has to remember the great difference between the W.R.N.S. and the other two Services. The W.R.N.S. are still civilians, and the other Services come under military law.

I suggest that much more use should be made of pre-Service training in the Women's Junior Air Corps, the Women's Naval Training Corps and the Girls' Training Corps. These three organisations really have great difficulty in knowing what to do with their own cadets, and I suggest to my hon. Friend that they might be recognised in the same way as boy's training units are recognised. I should like to read extracts from letters which I have received, which I think support my opinion. One girl writes to say: I understand that the minimum age for joining the W.R.A.C. is 17½years. As I am under this age, I wonder if it is possible for me to join with my parents' consent. If this is not so, will you kindly inform me if there are any centres where I may train in order to be of future use? There are a great many letters on these lines, and one girl goes as far as to say that she would very much like to know whether there are any classes. She says: I understand that you may train for engineering. I have no idea how to become one, but I would like to have the opportunity, and if I went abroad I should like to do engineering. She asks for advice on how to obtain some pre-Service training. Other letters are on similar lines, and one of them states: I am interested to know whether we have arty unit in our area. Another letter asks if girls could have a W.R.A.C. cadet unit, like the boys, who are between the ages of 13½ and 17. If I could get this—I could bring a number of girls in our area into a corps. I think that when we are recruiting girls to the Services the initial establishment to which they are sent has a great effect on how they are going to like the life in the future, and I would ask for consideration to be given to this point in particular. To give one example, H.M.S. "Dauntless," which is the recruiting centre for the W.R.N.S., is near Reading and one then has to make a considerable car journey to get there from the station. It has no connection with anything to do with the Navy, and, furthermore, if the girls need to have a medical examination they have to go to Eastleigh near Portsmouth to have it. I suggested that this is a very long journey for an X-ray, but I was told that it was very good for them because they would have the opportunity at last of seeing some types of naval establishments.

I suggest to my hon. Friend that he might consider an apprenticeship scheme on similar lines to that in the case of boys. I recognise that this may be rather expensive, and I therefore suggest to him that if the Government would be prepared to allow girls to go to their own local technical colleges, to a domestic training school or a shorthand and typing establishment, in which they could receive pre-Service training on a Government grant, this would not be a waste of money, as they would be very useful when they came into the Services.

I know it has been said that when girls are trained they may not, perhaps, be of much use in the Service later on, but I think this difficulty also happens in any form of apprenticeship. Boys employed by firms often leave for training apprenticeships, and it is not at all certain that they will go back after their apprenticeship and continue to work for that firm, and it is, therefore, a risk worth taking.

I should also like to discuss one particular Recommendation XXIV on page 12, because it seems to me that what the Government have said when considering this recommendation is quite illogical. The Recommendation says: …the engagement structure for women should be altered to allow them to leave at six months' notice after completing their initial engagement. The reply given by the Government is;The Government do not consider that such advantage as might accrue to recruiting from the introduction of this change would outweigh the adverse effect on morale and manpower planning. They accept, nevertheless, the principle that the engagement structure for women should be related to the needs of the Women's Services and not based too closely on that for men. The present engagement structure is accordingly to be reviewed to see what improvement can be made. I suggest to my hon. Friend that the Government should accept the recommendation in the Grigg Report and alter the structure to allow women to leave on six months' notice after they have completed their initial engagement. I cannot see what effect this would have on morale, although, of course, I do appreciate that it might make for a little difficulty in manpower planning. I do not, however, consider that that is a sufficient difficulty, because one does not have very good work from individuals who are not particularly happy in their jobs.

Recommendation XXVI deals with gratuities and bounties. In this respect, women are to have 85 per cent. of what men would have. In my view, when women have given their time equally with men, and they have, in the same way, put in the full 22 years' service, they should receive the same pensions, the same bounties and the same gratuities.

The Report recommends the use of school liaison officers. In my view, it is equally important to prove to the head mistresses and, particularly, to the "career" mistresses of the schools concerned that service in a Women's Service is a worthwhile career for girls. Today, they seem to think that the girls are just put into uniform, they march about and so on, but the mistresses at the schools do not seem to understand the excellent training which can be given. More explanation should be given to head mistresses. I think that they might be invited to go round the establishments and learn for themselves. The Report, referring to the school liaison officer, says that: A woman with knowledge and experience of the scholastic world should be associated with the recruitment of girls. I suggest that this is not the right type of woman for the job. If one wishes to recruit, one must have been in the Service oneself. One must have full knowledge of how the Service works; otherwise, one will certainly be caught out by questions which are asked. The Government, according to the White Paper, agree with the proposal about a woman with knowledge and experience of the scholastic world, but I hope that, if they do accept that suggestion, they will also see to it that she has herself served for a period in the Services. That is absolutely essential.

At the present time, recruiting should be easier, because a great many of the women, who are now mothers of the young girls looking for careers for the future, have been in the Services themselves. They will be more willing and understanding, and probably, would cooperate more fully in considering this type of career for their daughters. I suggest, therefore, that we might well get in touch with some of the people who have served in the Forces to enlist their co-operation in this matter.

When looking at the lists of recruiting stations, I was astounded to see, that, in some of the principal towns, such as Plymouth, which is part of my constituency, there is no recruiting station for the W.R.N.S., although there is one for the W.R.A.A.F. and W.R.A.C. In all such places, particularly where there are family traditions to enter the Services, there should be some recruiting station available.

In paragraph 284 of its Report, the Committee says that accommodation is most important. In my view, accommodation probably means more to women than it does to the men in the Services. There are far too many girls living in huts today, particularly in the W.R.N.S. and the W.R.A.C. If we are to have permanent women's Services we should see to it now that permanent buildings are put up in which the women can live. I note that, in the White Paper, it is simply said that the Government will bear this recommendation in mind, that is, the recommendation about huts. I consider that it should have top priority and that, apart from its being borne in mind, some action should be taken.

I suggest to my hon. Friend that more women could be employed in some stations if they were allowed to live out. It has been the practice for some time for nursing sisters to live out and work in the hospital daily. It may not be possible for the women to live in in smaller stations, and I think that more women could be employed if they had the privilege of living out.

Now I come to the question of parades and drills. I am not convinced that it is necessary for women to do a lot of parading and drill. They obviously need some gymnastics to keep them physically fit, but if they are to be asked to undertake parades and drills they should be given proper parade grounds. The other day I went to a recruiting ground which looked more like an enlarged molehill, and it was impossible to get any kind of proper formation with girls of different heights because of the extraordinary nature of the ground. They should be given the necessary facilities. Another point raised by the Committee concerns the matter of going overseas. This is too limited. A W.R.N.S. on a 22-year engagement may be able to go overseas only once during the whole of this period. It is clear from the response received from women to serve overseas in the N.A.A.F.I. recently, they have great courage and initiative and are willing to undertake overseas tours. I think that more consideration should be given to this point.

Paragraph 150 of the Report states that regimental cooks are preferred to the Army Catering Corps. I think that many more women should be given the job of regimental cooks. I am certain that this would improve the already excellent rations that are provided.

I should like to pay tribute to the women's nursing services. I understand that there is no difficulty in recruiting women for these services, and they can go overseas after they have been in the service for four months. At present, 340,000 girls of an age that could be recruited into the Services are leaving school each year. I therefore suggest that the recommendations of the Grigg Committee, as agreed by the Government, should be carried out at once and more stress should be given to the training of girls while in the Service so that they can get a job later in life.

One of the things that girls fear in going into one of the Services is that it may be a dead-end job. It may be that when they are married, or if they should be widowed, they may need to go out to work. If after leaving school they enter a civilian occupation they have a job to which they can return after they are married. We are apt to think that to train women technically is a waste. I hope that stress will be laid on the fact that girls going into the Women's Services will be learning and doing a worthwhile job.

I should also like to pay tribute to the women who founded the Services and made them so essential to our country in the short time which they have been in existence. I quite realise that this debate was put down to the Ministry of Defence, but I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would look into these points and ensure that full recognition is given to the Women's Services in the near future.

8.44 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Air(Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing)

The House owes a debt of gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) for raising a matter which, she says, was not underlined in any way during recent debates. It is significant that yesterday in another place this matter came up in quite an important manner and, perhaps, anticipated to some extent what my hon. Friend would say today.

It is infinitely worth while that on behalf of the other Service Ministries I should have an opportunity of underlining in the House of Commons the importance of the Women's Services. In case there is doubt about that, I should like to quote initially paragraph 64 of the 1958 Defence White Paper, which reads: It is most desirable to augment considerably the strength of the Women's Services, which will have an increasingly important part to play in the new all-regular forces. There is a wide range of duties open to them at home and abroad. I will quote also from what was said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War on 6th November, when we debated the continuation of the Army Act. He said: …the great importance of the W.R.A.C. to the Army is not always fully appreciated. There is a most important job here for girls, offering good conditions and prospects, and I hope that a growing number will come forward."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th November, 1958; Vol. 594, c. 1126.] I could quote other instances, as from the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence when he wound up a debate only two weeks ago. Talking about Women's Services, my right hon. Friend said…we attach the very highest importance to their rôle."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th November, 1958; Vol. 596, c. 157.] I hope there will not be any misunderstanding of the importance which Women's Services will play, particularly in the context of all-regular forces. Why are women wanted for our Services? Because they have special aptitudes in a number of applications, and particularly in such trades as signals, communications and radar. Quite frankly—I say it without defamation of the male sex-women are really better than men in those trades

Dame Irene Ward (Tynemouth)

Hear, hear.

Mr. Orr-Ewing

I am glad to hear that support from the hon. Lady from the North. Women are extremely conscientious. They do their jobs not only painstakingly but efficiently. There is a wide range of duties connected with telephones, communications, and radar in all three Services in which they are badly required. I should underline that it is not necessary for women volunteers to have had prior experience in these fields. The Services themselves will train women from A to Z. The women do not need to know anything about signals, communications or radar before volunteering.

I will deal with the question of recruiting, which is of great importance. There is little doubt that the W.R.N.S. will succeed in recruiting at the rate at which it requires, but this does not mean that recruits are not welcome. The more potential recruits to come forward the higher the standard that can be set. The W.R.A.C., and to a less extent the W.R.A.F., are not getting the numbers needed, although recent recruiting in both Services has shown considerable improvement. The Grigg Report estimated the requirement as between 5,000 and 6,000 girls for our Women's Services in every single year. Out of the total which my hon. Friend has mentioned, that is not a large number, but I would underline the very special part which this small but important number will play.

I do not think any of the Services has been complacent about this. Even prior to the Grigg Report, considerable steps had been taken to improve the conditions of service and to attract more women into our Forces. To start with—I know it is not of paramount importance, but it is of some importance—the pay of men and women was substantially increased last year. At the same time as the women benefited from the pay increase we took the opportunity to close the differential so that women, instead of getting 75 per cent. of the pay given to men, were raised to 85 per cent. To some extent, therefore, they got a double increase because of that arrangement.

I saw it stated in debate in another place yesterday that there is a good deal too much formality and "bull"—if I may use the term which the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) uses so often

—about all our Services, and that the experiment which we conducted in the Royal Air Force at Benson and which applied to both men and women, did not achieve results. I would like to deny that. We are taking very seriously the proposals which arose out of that experiment. I know that in all three Services we are trying to do away with unnecessary regimentation and formality, and are generally creating a climate which is more in keeping with present-day conditions in civilian life.

What further steps ought to be taken? I hope that I shall carry the House with me when I suggest that we should like to see the women looking more attractive. Some attention has been given to this matter. In fact, the hon. Lady raised it only recently in a Parliamentary Question. In the Women's Royal Air Force we have designed a new hat, and this is now on trial. Beige nylon stockings will be introduced next year, and we have also a new tropical hat. Plans are already advanced for gloves and for a summer blouse, which will be rather like that worn by air hostesses and which, I think, will be more acceptable and more attractive both to the men and to the women. Our own uniform in the Women's Royal Air Force was designed by Victor Stiebel, and it has been reflected to some extent by the Army's new uniform for the W.R.A.C. I do not think we have been unmindful of the need to have a woman's force which is not only efficient but also attractive and smart.

The hon. Lady also raised the question of overseas postings. We recognise, as indeed did the Grigg Committee, that this is a very considerable attraction to recruiting. It was, I think, disappointing that the figure brought out in the Grigg Committee's Report was that only 13 per cent. of our women had an opportunity of serving overseas. There are factors which make it rather difficult to increase that number very substantially. For reasons such as marriage and because of wastage, women do not serve in the Services for longer than between two and three years on average. There is, of course, a substantial number who serve very much longer than that. On a short service of that nature it is difficult to arrange that they should go on an overseas posting without it being a rather uneconomical contribution to the forces overseas. All three Services, however, are re-examining this point because they are all very mindful of the fact that it is an attraction from a recruiting point of view. I have visited and watched women serving overseas in our forces, and their morale and contribution to the forces is in every way first-class.

The hon. Lady also raised the question of whether we ought not to make greater use of women living locally and serving with one of our forces. The W.R.N.S. feels that it must have complete mobility, and that cannot be exercised if such an arrangement is made. Therefore, that idea is not very acceptable to it. The W.R.A.C. already has a scheme and the Royal Air Force has been examining this and has a scheme already in advanced stages. I hope that in the next few months I shall be able to announce it. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that this is a sphere in which there is considerable room for improvement.

May I deal with some of the recommendations which she dealt with in the Grigg Committee's Report? The first was Recommendation XXII, that the minimum age of entry to the ranks of the Women's Services should be reduced to 17. The Admiralty has not a recruiting problem. and feels that 171/2 is a reasonable arrangement. The other two Services are examining this proposal. As we stated in the White Paper, this is under consideration, but I can go a little further this evening and say that we now propose to implement the recommendation for certain categories. I refer to those who are recruited for the higher grades of work and for the higher posts. Recommendation XXIII states that all three Women's Services should have an initial period of probation and that this should be not less than the two weeks now in force in the W.R.N.S. The hon. Lady mentioned that and I have no hesitation in accepting it on behalf of the Government. I will say in passing that the importance of efficient and well laid-out stations at which they can do their initial training is obviously very much in the minds of all three Services.

Recommendation XXIV, which my hon. Friend mentioned, is

that the engagement structure for women should be altered to allow them to leave on six months' notice after completing their initial engagement. I am sorry to tell my hon. Friend that though this has been examined most carefully it is not a recommendation that we can accept. All three Services are agreed that six months' notice is rather too short. It will have an adverse effect on morale and, as my hon. Friend has herself suggested, on the planning of our manpower position. We regard women as being as important as men. They must be treated as seriously. Therefore, we cannot say that they are vital to our Forces and at the same time say that at six months' notice they can leave and disorganise our forces in that way.

My hon. Friend asked that the gratuities which were dealt with by the Grigg Committee should be raised. This is a recommendation which the Government are pleased to accept. Higher rates will be introduced on 1st April 1959.

Miss Vickers

Will they be equal to the men's gratuities or will they be equal to 85 per cent. of the men's gratuities as the Grigg Committee recommended?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

I am sorry but we cannot make them equal to the men's but, as the Grigg Committee recommended, to 85 per cent. of the men's pension rates.

My hon. Friend also referred to Recommendation XXVI which says that if the previous Recommendation XXIV was adopted consequential changes in the gratuity system for women should be introduced and that if the Recommendation was not accepted women's gratuities and benefits should be raised to 85 per cent. of the male rates. It has been already accepted that the gratuities and benefits should be raised to 85 per cent. of the male rates, and I am sorry that I can go no further this evening.

On recruiting in general, the Grigg Report suggested that the schools liaison organisation should be strengthened and suitable women from the scholastic world should be associated with recruitment of more educated girls. We liked very mucn the proposal that a headmistress with suitable experience should be appointed to advise. We are going ahead on that recommendation. My hon. Friend did not refer to it but I should like to take the opportunity of referring to Recommendation XXIX that consideration should be given to improving the standard and design of furniture," and Recommendation XXX that arrangements should be made to create a measure of privacy for women. In both those instances we are taking action. I think that they are thoroughly sensible suggestions. My hon. Friend referred particularly, and I thought the suggestion was most interesting, to the fact that we might start a pre-training school, rather like the boys' schools which we have in the Army and the Air Force and the apprentice schools. We have examined that in the Services, but it is a most expensive proposal, particularly when it is realised that the investment one makes in years of pre-training in a school of that sort may come to no avail because a woman, as indeed my hon. Friend recognised, must have freedom to leave should she wish to get married. Therefore, I do not think that we can consider setting up special schools for these young women. My hon. Friends and I would like to examine most carefully the alternative proposal by which the junior women's pre-Service training corps might be expanded to meet the real need of girls of 15 who may be leaving school and who want to do pre-Service training and are not sure in what manner they can do it. That is a most sensible suggestion.

My hon. Friend made some criticism of H.M.S. "Dauntless". It is true that it is a long way from the sea, but it is not a recruiting centre. It is an initial training and drafting centre. It is not practicable to have an X-ray department there. Women of the W.R.N.S. are taken to Portsmouth, as my hon. Friend recognised, and while there they are given a sight of the Navy. They need to have an opportunity of seeing all sides of the work and of the Service with which they will be associated.

The hon. Lady suggested that we should do away with marching. I have seen women march and I saw them marching at Bristol today when I opened a recruiting centre. I thought that their marching did great credit to our women's services. Some training in marching is desirable, but I agree that women should not march over hills, and I shall certainly examine the point the hon. Lady made.

In paragraph 217, the Grigg Report stated that the biggest single deterrent to recruitment to the Women's Services was the feeling that women were not needed in peacetime and that the public must be convinced that that was not so. I hope that I have convinced the public that there is a need in our Regular forces for women. In this short debate, we have had an opportunity to underline the fact that there is not only a need but a rewarding career for women in all three women's Services and that we need very large numbers of the highest quality recruits in the knowledge that they will serve the country as well as women did in the Second World War.