§ Mr. DelargyI beg to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the refusal of the Government to prohibit a shipment of rockets from Great Britain to Cuba.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Delargy) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the refusal of the Government to prohibit a shipment of rockets from Great Britain to Cuba.
I cannot find that within the Standing Order. The hon. Member for Thurrock, in the course of a supplementary question, mentioned something about a ship that was loaded with rockets and about to leave these shores. On the other hand, the Minister who was answering for the Foreign Office said that he understood that all the shipments for Cuba had already gone. That was controverted. Further pressed, he said he would look into it. It is one of the rules about the application of Standing Order No. 9 that the House must proceed upon a definite matter, not one in which the facts are in dispute or not ascertained. Therefore, I cannot find this within the Standing Order.
§ Mr. BevanThere was a statement of a very definite kind by the Minister of State in answer to a supplementary question by me. I asked shim whether he would give an undertaking that if the ship, loaded with rockets for Cuba, was about to leave it would be stopped, and the Minister refused to give an undertaking. That is a definite fact. If there is such a ship and it is about to sail, we 771 have not received from the Government any undertaking that the ship will be stopped.
§ Mr. SpeakerI rather think that the position is really this: The Minister did say that so far as he knew all the arms had been supplied. Then the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) asked him whether the facts were otherwise, whether the ship was going to sail, and, if so, would he stop it. We do not know about the ship yet; and in so far as that was concerned it was hypothetical, on the basis that the ship might be in existence and might be going to sail. I do not think that it is a definite matter Within the meaning of the Standing Order.
§ Mr. BevanWhat is not hypothetical, Sir, is the position of the Government, who will not give an undertaking to stop the shipment of arms to Cuba. That is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Delargy) is now raising and is what I raised earlier. Is it not surprising, in view of the fact that other nations have stopped sending arms to Cuba—[An HON.MEMBER: "Including America."]—including the United States, that we are in this position? If we can have an undertaking from the Government at this moment to take steps to see that no further arms are shipped from this country, the whole matter will end. In my respectful submission, it will be an abuse of the privileges of the House if, after the discussion today, we discover tomorrow morning that this evening the ship sailed and we could not then bring it back?
§ Mr. SpeakerIf that were so I have no doubt that the House would know how to deal with an abuse of its privileges. The original Question put upon the Order Paper by the hon. Member for Thurrock was
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what authorisation he has given for the supply of rockets to the Government of Cuba.That was answered in terms—I do not remember the words—to the effect that authorisation was given some time ago, in the usual way. Then, when pressed about future developments, the Minister said that the supplies had all gone and there were no more. That is what I understood. He was challenged on that, 772 and he said he would look into it. The facts are not before the House, and I really could not find that Motion as coming within the Standing Order.
§ Mr. BevanOn a point of order. You have not answered my question, Sir, that what is before the House is the definite refusal of the Government to take steps to prevent any further shipment of arms to Cuba. That is not hypothetical or vague and it might be extremely urgent. We are in possession of sufficient information from the Government, I respectfully submit, to enable the Adjournment of the House to be moved under Standing Order No. 9.
§ Mr. SpeakerI think not. It has frequently been ruled in the past that the fact that a Minister refuses to give a certain assurance or answer is not a matter that can be raised under the Standing Order. There is a long line of precedents. When the Minister disputes that more arms are going I do not see that the House is possessed of the facts. The refusal of the Minister to give an assurance when the request was put to him like that in a supplementary question is not a matter for the Standing Order.
§ Mr. HaleI beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importance. namely,
the failure of Her Majesty's Government to secure that no further tanks, aircraft and other offensive weapons shall be exported to assist the establishment and maintenance of a dictatorship in Cuba.I think that I am entitled briefly to submit my reasons, Sir. The Minister of State made it clear that he was not prepared to give the House an undertaking that he would conform to our obligations under the United Nations and that he would not take part in any operations which are virtually assisting the establishment of a dictatorship in the island of Cuba and which would easily embroil us in a situation of such gravity that no one would be able to predict with any certainty how far they might lead us. The Minister is doing that when the House is contemplating adjourning for a Recess to celebrate peace and good will on earth.This Motion is precisely within the terms of many Rulings under Standing 773 Order No. 9. It is beyond any question a definite matter and an urgent matter and I suggest that it is impossible for you to rule that such a proposal is not of very great public importance indeed. The Motion was originally written out in these terms, and I have it here, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the failure of Her Majesty's Government to secure that no further tanks, aircraft and other offensive weapons shall be exported to assist the establishment and maintenance of a dictatorship in Cuba.
For the reason I have given, I cannot find that in line with the Standing Order. Here the facts are as follows. The original Question of the hon. Member for Thurrock on the Order Paper did not ask for any such assurance. The hon. Member said that more arms were going. The impression of the Minister of State was to the contrary, but he said he would inquire. Therefore, the House is not proceeding upon an agreed basis of facts that other arms are going. If the Government had had the facts in their minds and were sure of them and had said aye or nay, that might be a different matter, but I do not think that the fact the Government do not give an assurance straight away on matters which are in doubt, without looking into it, can be made a ground for moving the Adjournment under the Standing Order.
Hon. Members have to be reasonable about this. The House must proceed on a basis of fact which is agreed. We do not know whether more arms are going. We do not know anything definite on this subject at all.
§ Mr. DelargyThis matter is as urgent as this, Sir. As recently as last Friday 180 Cuban rebels—so-called—were either killed or wounded chiefly by arms supplied by this country. The others have now taken refuge in the mountains and the dictator is badly in need of these rockets to destroy them as soon as he can. An all-out offensive is to be launched next week, chiefly with the aid of British arms. This is something which, so far, has been unknown to British 774 people or to the British Parliament. I am convinced that if the British people knew about it they would strongly disapprove. That is why I said that this deal is being done behind their backs. It is very serious, exceedingly urgent, and is certainly of public importance.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member has made an interesting statement about the war in Cuba, but we are not in possession of the facts; the matter is not agreed. I think that before we can apply the Standing Order of the House must proceed on a basis of agreed facts, something definite.
§ Mr. HaleFurther to that point of order. I submit to you. Sir, that to base your judgment on anything in the original Question is irrelevant to the question that we are discussing. We are discussing the Answer given by the Minister of State, who said that he did not know, that it was not clear, that the dictatorship was being established and there was something of a state of civil war.
Now the right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that, I respectfully suggest to you that that gives us the right to demand at once, as a definite matter and as one of grave urgency, an undertaking from Her Majesty's Government that they will at once give instructions to cease this wicked deed, and that, unless they are prepared to do that, we are entitled to demand the adjournment of the House in order to press the Government for such an undertaking.
You will recall that this sort of thing has a long history, dating back to the "Alabama" and that that case brought us near to war with the United States. It is difficult to suggest that this is not a matter of urgent importance about which we should take steps at once.
§ Mr. SpeakerSo far as I can recollect, the answer of the Minister of State was that he did not know these facts, that more arms were going.
§ The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Commander Allan Noble)In one of my supplementary answers I said my information was that these missiles—these rockets—had been sent. I have now checked and my information is that the last of a consignment of rockets for which export licences were approved left on 3rd November. I have no knowledge of any 775 others and I should welcome details in order to check whether the new consignment to which the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Delargy) referred has an export licence. I will give the assurance that no further missiles of this type will be sent without informing the House.
§ Mr. BevanWould the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider that last sentence again? We want an assurance from him—and then this unhappy incident can close at once—that no weapon of any sort will be sent from Great Britain to Cuba.
§ Commander NobleI will give an assurance that no further weapons of any sort will be sent without informing the House of Commons.