HC Deb 11 December 1958 vol 597 cc492-6
18. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the report of prison after care and the estimate that nearly 500 extra probationer officers will be required to implement the proposals, and in view of the fact that justices are making a diminished use of probation because of the present limited number of trained probation officers, what action is being taken to expand the present number of 1,373 probation officers to meet the implicit need.

Mr. Renton

The Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders estimated that to implement its recent recommendations on after-care would require 32 extra probation officers in the first instance and another 36 at a later stage. More probation orders were made in 1957 than in any previous year and the number of trained probation officers in the service is now higher than ever before. The efforts being made to increase recruitment to training for probation work are meeting with a fair measure of success, as I explained in reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 4th December.

Mr. Sorensen

Is it a fact that the figure of 500 is generally accepted as being the number necessary in order to improve the efficiency of this necessary service?

Mr. Renton

No, Sir, that is not so. The Advisory Council made it clear that it did not recommend that all male prisoners should be submitted to aftercare on discharge. The figure of 500, which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, is the number of probation officers which it said would be necessary if that were done, but it did not recommend that.

Sir F. Medlicott

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the work of these men lies very near the heart of the solution of the problem of lessening crime, and that time and trouble expended in this direction will be invaluable, and in any case a great deal more valuable than the re-introduction of flogging?

Mr. Renton

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend fully appreciates the value of after-care work and the importance of the work done by probation officers in respect of it. The extension of after- care recommended by the Advisory Council would need legislation, and that is a matter we must bear in mind for the future.

Mr. Anthony Greenwood

In view of the admitted need for more probation officers, will the Home Secretary reconsider his previous decision not to set up a committee of inquiry into the recruitment, training and functions of probation officers? Would he be prepared to receive an all-party deputation on this subject early in the New Year?

Mr. Renton

That is an entirely separate matter.

Mr. Greenwood

May I ask for a reply to my perfectly reasonable supplementary question?

Hon. Members

Answer.

Mr. Renton

My right hon. Friend will, of course, be glad to see any deputation from hon. Members.

19. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many juvenile and other cases, respectively, are now being dealt with weekly by probation officers in the Metropolitan Police area and in England and Wales; what is the increase per probation officer over the past 10 years; and what is the present proportion of probation officers who are sick, or absent for other causes, compared with 5 and 10 years ago, respectively.

Mr. Renton

As the Answer is lengthy and involves a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Sorensen

Yes, but is it true what I asked—that the number of cases has increased substantially, that an increasing number of probation officers are going sick because of overwork, and that they cannot possibly give this valuable service unless their numbers are materially increased?

Mr. Renton

We are anxious to increase their numbers and I am glad to say that the number of officers in the Metropolitan magistrates' courts area will inevitably increase as a result of recruitment. As regards absence due to sickness, there is no evidence that at the moment there is undue absence of that kind from the probation service in the Metropolitan area or elsewhere.

Following is the Answer Information about cases dealt with weekly and figures for the Metropolitan Police District are not available. My right hon. Friend estimates that on 31st December, 1957, the latest date for which he has figures, the total case-load of probation officers in England and Wales comprised about 34,200 juveniles and 31,400 adults. The corresponding figures for the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Area were 2,800 and 3,650. Since 1951, the earliest date for which information is available, the average case-loads of men probation officers in England and Wales and in the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Area have increased by 2.5 and 4.1 respectively. Those of women officers have decreased by 0.3 and 4.7. On 8th December, of 146 officers in the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Area 7 were absent for reasons other than annual leave; the figures for the same date in 1953 and 1948 were respectively 4 out of 137 and 2 out of 120. Corresponding information about England and Wales is not available.
36. Mr. Janner

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the fact that probation officers are persons carrying on that job with dedication and inadequate pay, and in view of his proposals to extend the duties of the probation officers, and having regard to the increase in criminal and anti-social behaviour, what steps he proposes to take to provide adequate payment for such officers and to attract suitable and sufficient personnel for the service.

40. Sir F. Medlicott

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the difficulty of obtaining an adequate number of entrants into the probation service because of the present level of salaries; and if he will now indicate when he will be able to increase the level of such salaries.

Mr. R. A. Butler

A claim by probation officers for salary increases is under consideration by the Joint Negotiating Committee for the Probation Service, which will, no doubt, examine recruitment in so far as it considers it relevant. I shall give the fullest consideration to any recommendations that may be made to me by the Committee.

Mr. Janner

Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that he used even stronger words than I at a meeting as recently as 19th November, when he said that they carried out their job with dedication on miserable pay? Is not he already convinced that the pay is miserable, and that something should be done about it? Is he now prepared to set up another committee to investigate the whole matter?

Mr. Butler

The normal machinery is considering an increase in pay, and we had better wait for its findings. As for my own observations, I remember them very well. I do not think that any reward would be sufficient for such a dedicated service as this.

38. Mr. Janner

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that shortages of staff in the London Probation Service have necessitated frequent movements of staff, which have in many instances almost destroyed the sustained personal relationship between probationer and probation officer, and that the effect of this has been to force probation officers to function in an unsatisfactory manner; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with the position with a view to their being able to make full use of their skill and experience.

Mr. Renton

London probation officers are necessarily moved from time to time to meet the needs of the courts and to give them varied experience: but only 12 out of a total of about 140 established officers have been moved to date in 1958. The movement of temporary officers is necessarily more frequent. My right hon. Friend recognises that too many changes of officers are undesirable, and he appreciates the efforts of the London staff to help probationers in the present difficult conditions. My right hon. Friend has appointed 19 new trained officers this year, and he hopes to increase the staff substantially during 1959.

Mr. Janner

Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the London probation officers are not at all satisfied with the position and that they have set up a special committee to deal with the matter vis-à-vis the Home Office? Does he really expect them to carry on this superhuman work when there are not enough members of the staff to cope with the situation?

Mr. Renton

We know that the London probation officers are not satisfied and we understand their difficulties. I am glad to say that we have a good number of recruits in training and we hope to see a great improvement in the strength of the probation service in the New Year.