§ 33 Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Supply (1) what alternative use he intends for the Royal Ordnance factory, Cardiff; and whether he will make a statement;
(2) what estimate he has made of the number of unskilled workers who will be redundant when the Royal Ordnance factory, Cardiff, is closed; and what number he proposes to transfer to alternative employment;
608 (3) what estimate he has made of the number of skilled craftsmen who will be redundant when he closes the Royal Ordnance factory, Cardiff; and what number he proposes to transfer to other employment.
§ 37. Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Supply whether he will make a further statement on the Royal Ordnance factories.
§ Mr. Aubrey JonesI have completed a further review of capacity in the Royal Ordnance factories in the light of the latest estimates of Service requirements, and I have been forced to the conclusion that the factory at Cardiff must be closed, except for a portion which is engaged on special work, and that there must be some contraction at Nottingham and Woolwich.
That part of the Cardiff factory which is not being retained will be offered for sale or lease. There are 353 established industrial employees at the Cardiff factory, of which 221 are skilled, and 320 unestablished, of which 126 are skilled. Of the total of 673, about 160 will be retained on special work. The surplus established workpeople will all be offered transfers to other Government employment.
§ Mr. ThomasIn view of that very serious statement, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that there is plenty of non-military constructive work to which the skilled labour could be turned by his own Department? Is he aware that he has no right just to wash his hands of these people who have served the nation for so long in his Department?
§ Mr. JonesI hope I am not washing my hands of any of the implications of what, I admit, is a quite serious problem. The fact none the less remains that there is not the same shortage of civilian goods as there was in the war.
§ Mr. WilleyIs the right hon. Gentleman's statement an interim or a final statement? Has the future of further Royal Ordnance factories seriously been reviewed? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has fully and exhaustively considered the possibility of putting civilian work in the Royal Ordnance factories?
§ Mr. JonesClearly, no statement can be a final statement because no statement can cover all time, but I have just completed the review, and clearly it would be unreasonable to undertake any further review within a short period.
§ Mr. JonesThose established employees who avail themselves of offers of other Government employment will, I think I am right in saying, have equivalent rates of pay.
§ Mr. ThomasWill the Minister bear in mind that employment is already becoming difficult in other spheres in Cardiff and that it is his responsibility to provide non-military work, with which his Department is dealing—atomic work? These men can be engaged at once if he will give some urgent attention to the matter.
§ Mr. JonesI am aware that the rate of unemployment in Cardiff is somewhat higher than elsewhere, but there is, as a matter of fact, civilian atomic work being done in the Cardiff factory.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsIn deciding which factory is to close, may I ask whether any consideration is given to the employment situation in the immediate vicinity of the factory? Will not the closing of some of these factories add to an existing severe unemployment problem?
§ Mr. JonesRegard is had to the general level of employment in the locality affected. That was done in this case, but in this instance, as in many other instances, the technical and financial grounds on which the decision was made were of very great weight.
§ Mr. CallaghanDoes not the right hon. Gentleman recall that seven weeks ago today, in response to a specific Question, he stood at the Dispatch Box and told the House that the facts did not warrant the suggestion that the Royal Ordnance factory at Cardiff was to be closed? Does he realise that he has laid himself open to the charge, which has been freely made in Cardiff, that he misled the House of Commons deliberately and waited until the House had risen and then made his statement?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I think the hon. Member should put his question without making any personal imputation.
§ Mr. CallaghanFurther to that point, Mr. Speaker. What I am saying is that it has been represented to the hon. Members representing Cardiff that the Minister deliberately misled the House in giving an answer to the effect that the Royal Ordnance factory was not being closed down.
§ Mr. JonesWhat I said seven weeks ago was that the facts as they then stood did not lead to the conclusion that the Cardiff factory was to be closed. The hon. Member was informed by letter that a review of the whole of the Royal Ordnance factory capacity was then being undertaken. It was not then completed. Clearly, the conclusion emerged only after the conclusion of the study.
§ Mr. CallaghanWould it not have been more in accordance with the usual behaviour of Ministers if hon. Members had been told that there was a possibility that this Royal Ordance factory was to be closed down, in view of the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) and I had seen the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary on at least four or five occasions over the last six months and that we had no indication until we received a letter during the Easter Recess?
§ Mr. JonesI endeavour as soon as possible to inform hon. Members involved about any decision affecting closures, but I think it right that the workpeople in the factory should be notified first. They were notified first in this instance, and when they were notified there were letters in the post to the Members of Parliament representing the area affected.
§ Mr. ThomasIn view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose to raise the matter at the first possible opportunity.
§ 36. Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Supply what amount of work his Department is doing for the Atomic Energy Authority; and to what extent he anticipates any of his Department's Royal Ordnance factories' dormant capacity being taken up for atomic energy work in the future.
§ Mr. Aubrey JonesMy Department is doing a substantial and increasing amount of work for the Atomic Energy Authority, 611 mainly in the Royal Ordnance factories. It is unlikely, however, that the available work of this type will occupy a high proportion of Royal Ordnance factory capacity.
§ Mr. MasonIs the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that he has given sufficient emphasis to the new development, and can he say to what extent he has had consultations with the Atomic Energy Authority or the consortium responsible for the building of atomic power stations and so on?
§ Mr. JonesI have had consultations both with the Atomic Energy Authority and with my noble friend the Minister of Power.
§ 39. Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Supply what progress he has made in obtaining overseas orders for the Royal Ordnance factories; to what extent he anticipates checking the rundown of production; and whether he will now make a comprehensive statement about the future.
§ Mr. Aubrey JonesThe Royal Ordnance factories have for several years been engaged on overseas orders and they are continually looking for more. The overseas market for the kind of weapons which the Royal Ordnance factories are equipped to produce is not, however, expanding.
§ Mr. MasonCan we take it from that reply that the Minister has failed completely to deal with overseas orders? What are the possibilities of developing the Royal Ordnance factories in new fields such as missiles and, perhaps, powered bombs?
§ Mr. JonesThe hon. Gentleman may take it from my answer that overseas orders are being fed into the Royal Ordnance factories, but he ought also to take it that the world demand for conventional arms has undergone very much the same course as the British demand; in other words, it was very high in the years following the Korean War but it has subsided since.