HC Deb 19 November 1957 vol 578 cc313-9
Mr. Marquand

I beg to move, in page 6, line 11, to leave out "8d." and to insert "7d.".

The Temporary Chairman

I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we took all the Amendments to the Schedule together.

Mr. Marquand

I agree, Mr. Hynd. They all apply to the same subject, namely, the extent to which employees' contributions are proposed to be raised by the Bill in regard to the Industrial Injuries Scheme.

We had a long discussion—for an hour or so—on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," and I feel that as the Committee has already had this long discussion on the matter I need only move the Amendment. I hope that we can thereby, quite quickly, come to a decision upon it so that whichever way the decision goes it will be unnecessary to have separate Divisions on the other Amendments.

We listened attentively to what the Joint Parliamentary Secretary had to say about this matter. We fully recognise the principles upon which the Industrial Injuries Fund is established. Because the State subvents the Fund to a reasonable proportion we recognise that the contributions made both by employers and employees ought to be sufficient to pay the benefits not only immediately but over a period of years. But we were not completely satisfied with the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's argument that the large increases now proposed—from 5d. to 8d., and so on—are really necessary. They still seem to us to be rather too large, and we are not convinced that it is necessary at this time to go so far in building up the resources of the Fund.

When we compare the contributions now asked for with those which were asked for in 1946, we see that they represent an increase of 100 per cent., whereas the basic benefit is increased by only 80 per cent. over the 1946 level. It is a good increase, and we are not complaining about it, but we do not see why the contributions should be increased quite so much. I need say no more. I expressed my views in the earlier discussion, as did many other hon. Members. We now want to register our feeling about the matter in the Division Lobbies.

9.0 p.m.

Mr. Wood

The four Amendments which we are now discussing, if taken with those which are shortly to be moved to increase the benefits, illustrate some of the financial difficulties into which we shall all be led if we entrust our affairs to another Socialist Administration.

The right hon. Gentleman has been commendably brief, and I do not want to retrace all the ground which was covered yesterday in the debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," but I repeat that in his recent Report the Government Actuary has pointed out that the new rates of contribution—which the Amendments suggest should be lowered—represent those amounts which would be sufficient to ensure the solvency of the Fund. They are rates designed not only to cover the deficiency pointed out in 1954, but also to cover the new liabilities which have been placed upon the Fund by the Acts passed since 1954. They are also intended to pay for the new benefits. This Amendment and the following Amendments suggest against the whole weight of the Government Actuary's Report that, in fact, more benefits could be obtained for less.

Sometimes this Socialist theory seems to dazzle the electorate, but here the theory of trying to get more benefits for less comes most uncomfortably against the economic facts of life. I hope that hon. Members will accept that it is not possible to buy, as is intended in this

series of Amendments, one-third better benefits for one-sixth less cost. On the specific proposals to reduce the workers' contribution by 1d. a week. I would remind the Committee again about what was said in 1945 by the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) when contributions from employers and employees had been made to differ. The right hon. Gentleman gave the undertaking that they would be brought together again. The proposal of the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) is exactly the opposite. He wishes to pull the contributions further apart. In fact, these Amendments would double the existing gap.

The proposal made yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman that the worker might pay 7d. and the employer 10d. would not only double the gap, but treble it. Unless we juggle the contribution to divide the extra sixpenny contribution into different proportions, and thus violate the principle enunciated by the right hon. Member for Llanelly, we are left with two alternatives; either we must follow the proposals in the Bill and have the contributions proposed in the First Schedule which, on the Government Actuary's testimony, will be sufficient to ensure solvency, or we must accept the Amendment, which would not only destroy any hope of solvency of the Fund in the future, but would, for that very reason, make necessary at a later date a far larger increase in the contribution than is proposed in the Bill. Therefore, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

Question put, That "8d." stand part of the Schedule:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 245, Noes 203.

Division No. 9.] AYES [9.2 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Bennett, Dr. Reginald Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)
Aitken, W. T. Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Campbell, Sir David
Alpert, C. J. M. Bidgood, J. C. Carr, Robert
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Biggs-Davison, J. A. Channon, Sir Henry
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Chichester-Clark, R.
Armstrong, C. W. Bishop, F. P. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)
Ashton, H. Black, C. W. Cole, Norman
Atkins, H. E. Bossom, Sir Alfred Cooke, Robert
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Corfield, Capt. F. V.
Baldwin, A. E. Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)
Balniel, Lord Boyle, Sir Edward Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Barber, Anthony Braine, B. R. Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)
Barlow, Sir John Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Cunningham, Knox
Barter, John Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Currie, G. B. H.
Baxter, Sir Beverley Brooman-White, R. C. Dance, J. C. G.
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) Davidson, Viscountess
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Burden, F. F. A. Deedes, W. F.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Butcher, Sir Herbert Digby, Simon Wingfield
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Irvine, Bryant Cadman (Rye) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Orr, Cap[...]. L. P. S.
du Cann, E. D. L. Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)
Duncan, Sir James Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Osborne, C.
Duthie, W. S. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Page, R. G.
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. (Kelvingrove) Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot Partridge, E.
Elliott, R. W. (N'castle upon Tyne, N.) Kaberry, D. Peyton, J. W. W.
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Kerby, Capt. H. B. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Errington, Sir Eric Kerr, Sir Hamilton Pike, Miss Mervyn
Farey-Jones, F. W. Kershaw, J. A. Pilkington, Capt. R. A
Fell, A. Kimball, M. Pitt, Miss E. M.
Finlay, Graeme Kirk, P. M. Pott, H. P.
Fisher, Nigel Lagden, G. W. Powell, J. Enoch
Forrest, G. Lambert, Hon. G. Price, David (Eastleigh)
Fort, R. Lambton, Viscount Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) Lancaster, Col. C. G. Rawlinson, Peter
Freeth, Denzil Langford-Holt, J. A. Redmayne, M.
Gammans, Lady Leather, E. H. C. Rees-Davies, W. R
Garner-Evans, E. H. Leavey, J. A. Renton, D. L. M.
Gibson-Watt, D. Leburn, W. G. Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Glover, D. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Robson Brown, Sir William
Glyn, Col. Richard H. Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Roper, Sir Harold
Godber, J. B. Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan Lindsay, Martin (Solihull) Russell, R. S.
Goodhart, Philip Linstead, Sir H. N. Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Gower, H. R. Llewellyn, D. T. Shepherd, William
Graham, Sir Fergus Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Grant, W. (Woodside) Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) Spearman, Sir Alexander
Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick) Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)
Green, A. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Gresham Cooke, R. McAdden, S. J. Stevens, Geoffrey
Grimond, J. Macdonald, Sir Peter Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Mackeson, Brig, Sir Harry Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. McKibbin, Alan Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm
Gurden, Harold Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Storey, S.
Hall, John (Wycombe) McLaughlin, Mrs. P. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H. McLean, Neil (Inverness) Studholme, Sir Henry
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) Summers, Sir Spencer
Harris, Reader (Heston) MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley) Teeling, W.
Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Maddan, Martin Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)
Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) Markham, Major Sir Frank Turner, H. F. L.
Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Marshall, Douglas Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Hill, John (S. Norfolk) Mathew, R. Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Hirst, Geoffrey Maude, Angus Vickers, Miss Joan
Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) Mawby, R. L. Wade, D. W.
Holland-Martin, C. J. Medlicott, Sir Frank Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Holt, A. F. Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R. Wall, Major Patrick
Hornby, R. P. Moore, Sir Thomas Ward, Rt. Hon. C. R. (Worcester)
Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Morrison, John (Salisbury) Webbe, Sir H.
Horobin, Sir Ian Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Whitelaw, W. S. I.
Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence Nabarro, G. D. N. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. Nairn, D. L. S. Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Heave, Airey Wood, Hon. R.
Hurd, A. R. Nicholls, Harmar Woollam, John Victor
Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.) Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.) Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)
Hyde, Montgomery Nugent, G. R. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Oakshott, H. D. Colonel J. H. Harrison and
Iremonger, T. L. O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Mr. Bryan.
Ainsley, J. W. Boyd, T. C. Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)
Albu, A. H. Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Brockway, A. F. Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Brown, Thomas (Ince) Cronin, J. D.
Awbery, S. S. Burke, W. A. Crossman, R. H. S.
Bacon, Miss Alice Burton, Miss F. E. Cullen, Mrs. A.
Balfour, A. Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Callaghan, L. J. Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)
Benson, G. Castle, Mrs. B. A. Deer, G.
Beswick, Frank Champion, A. J. Delargy, H. J.
Blackburn, F. Chapman, W. D. Diamond, John
Blyton, W. R. Clunie, J. Dodds, N. N.
Boardman, H. Coldrick, W. Dye, S.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Edelman, M. Lindgren, G. S. Reeves, J.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Lipton, Marcus Reid, William
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson Rhodes, H.
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) MacColl, J. E. Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Fernyhough, E. MacDermot, Niall Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Fienburgh, W. McGhee, H. G. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Finch, H. J. McInnes, J. Ross, William
Fletcher, Eric McKay, John (Wallsend) Royle, C.
Foot, D. M. McLeavy, Frank Short, E. W.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Shurmer, P. L. E.
Gibson, C. W. MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Gooch, E. G. Mahon, Simon Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Mainwaring, W. H. Skeffington, A. M.
Grey, C. F. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.) Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Griffiths, William (Exchange) Mann, Mrs. Jean Snow, J. W.
Hale, Leslie Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Sparks, J. A.
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mason, Roy Steele, T.
Hamilton, W. W. Mellish, R. J. Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Hannan, W. Mitchison, G. R. Stonehouse, John
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Monslow, W. Stones, W. (Consett)
Hastings, S. Moody, A. S. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Hayman, F. H. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Healey, Denis Mort, D. L. Sylvester, G. O.
Herbison, Miss M. Moss, R. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) Moyle, A. Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Holman, P. Mulley, F. W. Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Holmes, Horace Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Thornton, E.
Howell, Denis (All Saints) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) Timmons, J.
Hoy, J. H. Oliver, G. H. Tomney, F.
Hubbard, T. F. Oram, A. E. Viant, S. P.
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Orbach, M. Watkins, T. E.
Hunter, A. E. Oswald, T. Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Owen, W. J. Wheeldon, W. E.
Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Palmer, A. M. F. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) Wilkins, W. A.
Jeger, George (Goole) Pargiter, G. A. Willey, Frederick
Johnson, James (Rugby) Parker, J. Williams, David (Neath)
Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Paton, John Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)
Jones, David (The Hartlepools) Peart, T. F. Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Pentland, N. Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Popplewell, E. Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Prentice, R. E. Winterbottom, Richard
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Kenyon, C. Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Woof, R. E.
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Probert, A. R. Yates, V. (Ladywood)
King, Dr. H. M. Proctor, W. T. Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Lawson, G. M. Pryde, D. J. Zilliacus, K.
Ledger, R. J. Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Lee, Frederick (Newton) Randall, H. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Rankin, John Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.
Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Redhead, E. C.

Schedule agreed to.