HC Deb 11 November 1957 vol 577 cc607-9
51. Mr. Hastings

asked the Minister of Health in how many hospitals he has agreed to a relatively large number of single bedded side wards being designated as Section 5 pay beds on the understanding that only a much smaller number of these shall be used at any one time; and what steps he has taken to ensure that in such cases a patient moved to one of these small wards for urgent medical reasons will not be returned to the main ward to make room for a paying patient.

Mr. Walker-Smith

I know of only one case in which approval has been given on this basis. I see no reason why it should have the result implied in the Question.

Mr. Hastings

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that requests have been received from two or three hospitals under the North-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board for this arrangement, and that unless an inferior type of treatment is given to ordinary patients in his hospitals—which I am sure he would not wish—the principal advantage of pay beds must be to get patients in at once and will not this arrangement be essential if patients are to be taken in at once into these hospitals?

Mr. Walker-Smith

I think the difficulty which this procedure is designed to meet, which I am sure will be familiar to the hon. Gentleman with his great experience in this sphere, is that in some hospitals, including the one in question, the total demand for pay beds is low. Nevertheless, they have to be available in different parts of the hospital for different specialities at the time when the patient wants to come in. That is the situation for which this procedure is designed.

Mr. Hastings

Yes, but will not the right hon. Gentleman give instructions that patients needing these beds for medical reasons will not be turned out into an ordinary ward to make room for private, paying patients?

Mr. Walker-Smith

Beds designated under Section 5 may already be used for patients needing that accommodation urgently on medical grounds. Whether they go there, and how long they stay, is a question for the doctor who is treating the patient, and he makes the decision on medical grounds.

Dr. Summerskill

May I press the Minister on this point, because this is rather an abuse of that facility? Could not the right hon. Gentleman agree with my hon. Friend that it is desirable, when he sends out instructions to the hospitals, to warn the authorities that those beds should not be used in this manner?

Mr. Walker-Smith

If the right hon. Lady means that instructions should go out that there should not be a designation of this kind at all, then I would need to have further evidence that there were actual disadvantages outweighing the advantages which the scheme is thought to have by those who recommend it.

Dr. Summerskill

No, Sir, I did not say that. Again the Minister's answer is rather legalistic. I am prepared to have this designation, but I think, as my hon. Friend has said, that if a bed is being used by a sick patient who has been taken from the general ward, it is grossly unfair if the patient is removed because another patient who is in a position to pay comes in and asks for the bed.

Mr. Walker-Smith

I am obliged to the right hon. Lady for clarifying her question, and it may well be that I was at fault in not understanding her aright. I have no reason to suppose that there is any danger of such a thing happening. If there is, I will certainly consider the question of clarifying by a circular what I understand already to be the position.

Mr. Hastings

Are not these results inevitable under the present scheme?