HC Deb 20 May 1957 vol 570 cc852-4
31. Mr. Beswick

asked the Minister of Supply if he will now revise the security regulations which have permitted a Conservative Member of Parliament to fly in the Victor bomber and not a Labour Member of Parliament.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

I am anxious to gratify the desire of the hon. Gentleman for a flight in the Victor as soon as I can, but I would ask him to curb his impatience for a little longer until the flying programme is further advanced and more aircraft are available.

Mr. Beswick

While not complaining at all that the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air Commodore Harvey) was able to fly in this aircraft, because I am quite certain that the safety of the country was in no way diminished by that fact, is it not the case that the refusal to allow me to accept an invitation was not based upon expedience or on the flying programme but on security grounds? In view of the fact that commercial airline pilots were able to fly in this aircraft, why should there be discrimination against myself?

Mr. Jones

I have no objection, on purely security grounds, to the hon. Gentleman flying in this aircraft, but I would ask him to appreciate that if I give him permission to fly in this aircraft, then by the same token I should have to give permission to other Members of Parliament. I hope the hon. Gentleman is not asking me to discriminate in his favour. The point I am trying to make in this is that the number of aircraft is at the moment limited, that they are scheduled for test flights for development, and to open the door to many passengers would impede this work of development, and that, I think, would be undesirable.

Mr. J. Griffiths

In reply to the supplementary question from my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick), the Minister has said that he had no objection on security grounds to my hon. Friend flying in this aircraft. Was there anybody else who had such an objection, and, if so, why? Since one hon. Member of this House has already been permitted to fly, why is the right hon. Gentleman refusing permission to my lion. Friend?

Mr. Jones

The hon. and gallant Gentleman on this side of the House who has made a flight happens to be the deputy-chairman of the company which is making the aircraft. There are all kinds of cases in which some Members of Parliament have advantages over others, and we cannot possibly eliminate all these natural advantages.

Mr. Gaitskell

Is not the Minister aware that by allowing my hon. Friend to fly in this aircraft he is not opening the door to any other hon. Members? Matters of this kind can always be dealt with through the usual channels, and may I ask him to suggest to his right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal that this question of flying in the Victor should be taken up in that way?

Mr. Jones

I shall be perfectly happy to see this matter discussed through the usual channels, but I would ask the hon. Member for Uxbridge to have some appreciation of my difficulties. If I allow one hon. Member to fly it means that I must allow others. I think there is a special difficulty in the case of my hon. and gallant Friend, but I should be very glad to see the matter discussed through the usual channels.

Air Commodore Harvey

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have been an executive and a director of this company for a number of years, and that I flew in this aircraft in the course of my duties with that company? Would it not be a good thing if more executives of companies flew in their companies' aircraft? May I say that my firm would be very glad to take the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) if he can be cleared, but, on the other hand, may I be allowed to fly in the Vulcan, the aircraft of our competitor?

Mr. Speaker

This matter is to be discussed through the usual channels, and I think it is better to leave it there.

32. Mr. Beswick

asked the Minister of Supply under what security regulations German journalists are permitted to fly in British military aeroplanes but not British journalists.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

There is no regulation giving such a preference.

Mr. Beswick

Is it not the case that in the last fortnight a German journalist has flown in the Hawker 7, and that permission has been refused to British journalists? Is not this another example of how the security regulations—and it was a matter of security in the other case, and nothing at all to do with the firm, because the reason given was that it was a matter of security regulations—is not this another case in which security regulations can be put on one side when commercial expediency so decides?

Mr. Jones

It certainly is the case that within the last fortnight a German journalist has flown in this aircraft. It also happened that in exactly the same flight four British journalists took part, too. As a matter of fact, the security objections to journalists flying in this aircraft were removed as long ago as last autumn.

Mr. Beswick

Quite apart from the fact that it was quite impossible for six men to fly in this aircraft, can we now take it from the Minister's reply that other British journalists who want to make this flight will now be permitted to do so?

Mr. Jones

Yes, Sir. There is no objection to other British journalists taking part, and, in this instance, they took part in flights on exactly the same day.