HC Deb 02 May 1957 vol 569 cc436-7

Motion made, and Question proposed,That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. W. Wells

The difficulty with which the Select Committee was confronted was that it consisted mainly, or almost solely, of two groups—lawyers who knew nothing about the sea except that it was wet, and sailors who knew nothing about the law except that it was dry. After the cheerful intervention of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland), I now come to a rather dry point on Clause 40, which deals with attempts to commit offences.

The effect of this Clause is that, apart from offences punishable by death, attempts are treated as being as serious as the substantive offence, and one sees how this has arisen. It is connected, of course, with the scale of penalties set out in Clause 43, which are rather general in their arrangement and much less specific than the maximum penalties to which we are accustomed in administering the criminal law in civilian life. At the same time, I think it is a bad principle where, for instance, we get an offence like desertion, which is punishable, I think I am right in saying, with life imprisonment, to have an attempted desertion carrying the same penalty.

We know, in practice, that these maximum penalties are hardly ever imposed, but, as the right hon. and learned Attorney-General, whose presence in the Committee we all welcome, knows so well from his great experience in these matters, courts do use maximum penalties as some kind of indication of the way in which they should work. The indication that is given in this Clause, in my submission, is a very bad one, and I hope that at some stage the hon. Gentleman will feel able to give this matter some careful reconsideration.

Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith

One reason why we have this Clause drafted in the way it is drafted is to keep it in line with the Army Act, because that is one of the basic principles upon which the whole Bill has been drafted. I think it is unlikely that we would be able to change it, but I am perfectly willing to consider what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 41 and 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill.